98: Getting Hired During a Pandemic - How Abel Lomas Overcame Adversity (Twice) During Covid-19

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest again is Abel Lomas. Abel was last on the podcast about a year and a half ago in episode 59, when he was the top AE at TrustRadius. And he's had a particularly eventful 2020, having had to find a new job twice, which he's done like the master that he is. So I thought given the current environment that it would make sense to bring him back on to tell those stories and also provide some thoughts that actually work if you find yourself in a position of needing to find a new role. Welcome back, Abel.

0:59 Abel Lomas: Thank you, Scott. So happy to be here, and good morning.

1:01 Scott Ingram: Absolutely. So let me tweak my opening top 3 questions here, and before we get into the backstory, talk about the top 3 things that have allowed you to land back on your feet so quickly after some rather abrupt career changes and challenges.

1:19 Abel Lomas: Absolutely happy to. So I think it's a tale of 2 different stories between the 2 different experiences, but the top 3 remain the same. It's number one is leverage the network. Number 2 is prioritize your must-haves. And number 3 is take care of yourself.

1:34 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. And you know what, I'm going to leave those as they are because I know we're going to really get into each of them as we go through this, but I think that framing is, is really helpful. But let's, I mean, you're a storyteller. Let me just kind of let you tell the story. And I'm assuming we're going to want to start kind of the beginning of 2020. I mean, you said this is the tale of 2 stories, so I'll let you kind of incorporate those and just Give the context on what's happened here.

2:00 Abel Lomas: Absolutely. So let's start with TrustRadius. I was at TrustRadius at the beginning of the year. I've got to say, I really, really loved my time at TrustRadius. The company is amazing. I made so many fantastic relationships with so many people. And, you know, I had the great success being able to close the largest deal in company history several times over. And so that was pretty awesome in the progression of and development of that company. And by the way, you know, I've heard that since I've left, I've been topped maybe several times now. So that's actually what should happen. And really excited to see, you know, some of my former teammates just continue to blow it out there. But as I think back to that experience, it's always about the people. So many amazing people on the sales team, Lane, Shannon, Rudy, Martigan. All amazing teammates. And I can't go without talking about Derek Levine. He's incredible. He's now over at 6sense. The research team led by Megan, Emily Sue, and Beatrice all have become good friends of mine. CS, Jennifer, the leader of that group, Grishma and Morel. Man, Grishma is just a rock star. The things that 2 of us did at IBM, and I think she's about to do a webinar with IBM here shortly, and not a plug for that, but I just know that the work that she's done and the work that IBM team has done have just been amazing. And I also have to acknowledge Beth and Tom and the finance team for just making magic happen when it was time to, to get deals done. So after I left TrustRadius, it was just a time for me to really just dive in headfirst into the job hunt. I really treated it like it was my full-time job. And it is the thing that I did more than anything. And I looked back at my calendar prior to hopping on this call with you just to get a sense of some numbers. In the month of February, which is, you know, when all of this took place, I had 62 scheduled events across 4 weeks, including one-on-one networking, interviews, social events. I literally didn't say no to anything. And then on top of that, I did 31 workouts and I looked at what were some of my busiest days. February 24th, I did 7 interviews with 4 different companies. And then on top of that, I also volunteered or spent some time volunteering. And my wife pointed out several times to me that I had to be the busiest unemployed guy ever. But all of this activity was just, it was so much fun. I had a blast. And I caught up with a bunch of old friends, previous customers. I met a lot of new people and it was just a really, really special time. And that's ultimately what led me to land at Workfront. So after landing at Workfront, I've gotta say, you know, first and foremost, I really enjoyed the people at Workfront. Some, you know, really amazing people. I came across Sharleen Vincent and I know I connected the two of you guys. But what an incredibly talented salesperson she is. And I reached out to her really early in my tenure and I told her, hey, I just want to learn some stuff from you. Can we just talk? And without any hesitation, we jumped on a Zoom. And I got to say, we became really fast friends as a result of that. You know, the CEO, Alex Shootman, I had met him probably 15 years ago and was just blown away with him. Back then, and it's one of the reasons why I went to Workfront. And so many other great people, Clint Freeman, who was the gentleman who hired me, I worked on his team, and some of my teammates, all of my teammates, quite frankly. And I know I'm going to forget some of them, but off the top of my head, Cliff Tealer, who's right here in Austin, Garrett Ullum, Scott Wyman, Brian Toplikar, Rachel Hudson, Ashley Crowder. I mean, really some amazing people. And I have to also mention Steve Affleck. Who was our VP. What an amazing guy, so kind, friendly, thoughtful, really some amazing people. And it's a big part of why I went to Workfront. But we had no idea what the pandemic was going to do to the business. And, you know, quite frankly, after 2 months, my start was just really, really slow, and that was impacting a lot of people. And, you know, in that layoff, I've got to say, I wasn't surprised. I wasn't upset. It just, it was, it had to happen. I would have done the same thing and I have no regrets. And all I can say is that I'm so happy that I gained so many more great people in my network. It was after that, that I took actually a somewhat different approach in looking for my next gig after Workfront. And I'm going to say, you know, the top 3 didn't change. But I really prioritized taking care of myself because I noticed that during my time at Workfront, as much as I enjoyed the people, I am an extreme extrovert, as you know, and I really enjoy spending time with people, meeting people, doing things with people, and, you know, even meeting strangers at Target. Like, I'm that weirdo. I just, I want to meet people every single day. And when you take that away from me, it was a real struggle. And so I had to replace a lot of those things, those human interactions with physical activity. And so when I looked back at my calendar, there was a lot less of the networking type of events because they just don't really exist the same way they did before. And it was a lot more time really targeting specific people people within my network and really investing in them and them also likewise investing in me. I still prioritized my must-haves, which we can go into a little bit more detail in a little bit, but I spent a lot of time in self-care. And what I mean by that, bike rides. Last week, my last week off before starting my new gig this week, over 3 different bike rides, I rode 102 miles. And also did some running. I did a lot of hiking. And, you know, these are times that allow me to think, to regroup, to get my head into a good place, to think about people, people that I have existing relationships with and acknowledge them later and think about what I want to do with my career. Think about what I wanted to do in my new role, how I'm going to approach it differently, what I'm going to do there. And I'm really thankful to say that I've landed at XANT. XANT is an amazing company with incredible people. I have really been impressed with the team there. I'm on day number 2, but Kathy, Swad, Steve, Peter Black, all just really, really impressive people. And I am extremely motivated. They made it really easy for me to say yes to them. And I'm just so happy to be part of that team.

9:05 Scott Ingram: Such a great story. So, I mean, I'm so looking to dig into the details and I was planning to come to kind of the mindset and taking care of yourself piece later. But, you know, since you mentioned the bike rides and the running and the things that you're doing, maybe first, why don't we frame this? 'Cause you've been, since your interview in episode 59, I mean, you've been on a pretty significant health journey. Why don't you bring us up to speed on what that's looked like? And then we can go a little deeper into some of those pieces.

9:35 Abel Lomas: Sure. So the health journey, I knew I needed to start that a long time ago, but just like anything else, you have to have a plan. And my plan coupled in a downsize move event. And so last year, you know, during this time of the year, I was heads down preparing my house to put on the market, packing boxes, and, you know, outside of work, I just didn't have time to prioritize my health. Because I was prioritizing the move. As you know, they say it's, it's one of those, you know, more stressful things you have to do in life, you know, from time to time. And so as soon as I moved and I gave my, my car, which was nothing to be excited about, but I gave my car to one of my daughters who was moving out and not moving with us. And I upgraded to a bike and oh my God, that was life-changing. And step one was just putting my leg across that bike. And getting on and riding. And I started by riding to work every day. And those first several weeks, man, they were really challenging. But since it was new, it was so much fun. But, you know, come Wednesday, I was really sore and I had to like tell myself, it's just a couple more days. I can get on that bike and I can do it. And the weight just started to come off. And it was just amazing what started to happen. It took me several months before I could transition to some other activities like adding in running. And just because I was so heavy, my knees couldn't handle it. I eventually started to add in some, some gym workouts as well, but that has since stopped because of COVID But I've just prioritized cycling, running, hiking, and I spend a lot of time also walking the dog. So my step count per day is, even on days where I ride 38 miles, is still like 15,000 steps plus. And over the course of several months now, I'm down 65 pounds. I've also converted to become vegetarian and really trying to improve every aspect of my health.

11:36 Scott Ingram: Such a great story. I mean, and it's been so fun to watch. I mean, I probably see you even though it's on Zoom calls more often than not, but I probably see you at least once a month. And it's just been fun to watch you go through this journey and get healthier and healthier. And it's been a pleasure. Let's keep going on that thread and talk about just some of the mindset components, right? Because I think anytime you find yourself, especially in your case where it was, it wasn't exactly voluntary that you're going to need to make this, this change. How do you manage your mindset and your psychology? Because it's, it's pretty easy to go dark and get down on yourself when you're in that kind of place.

12:18 Abel Lomas: It is easy to get down on yourself. And there's a lot of things that I do from a mental standpoint. I don't think I have any secrets, Scott, but I think, you know, and people that know me know that I'm all about positivity and always looking for a positive angle. Just to take a step back for a second, let's say you're in a deal cycle and you thought you were going to win this deal and all of a sudden it goes sideways. The moment you let negativity creep into your brain, Yeah, you've probably lost that deal for good. But if you have a positive mindset, you can take that mental step backward and look at the situation from multiple different angles. And sometimes I would do that while being physical, so going on a walk or a run and either clearing the head or thinking just about that, but trying to look at different angles. And sometimes it's almost going into a bit of a meditative state. And just, you know, visualizing in my brain the different aspects of that deal, the different people, the different situations, the different scenarios, and starting to apply empathy to those situations and those people and trying to understand what could I do differently. And it's the same thing as we're thinking about this situation. It's taking a step back and thinking about, you know, how can I look at my situation differently? And sometimes I have to do that often. Sometimes I don't have to do it at all. Until, you know, some of that negativity starts to creep in. And that's one of the things I do. But the physical aspect is really important. I had a day a couple of weeks ago, it was actually after I signed my offer, all of a sudden my calendar cleared. And so I had all this extra time and I didn't know what to do with myself because I couldn't go see friends. I couldn't go hang out with people. I couldn't go meet new people. And so I found myself, you know, pretty low one day. And I should have been the happiest guy in the world because I just signed a great offer. And it was just one of those days where I'm like, I've got to go get on my bike. And it was probably, I don't know, close to 100 degrees outside, but I just had all this pent-up energy and I hopped on the bike and I did probably 35 miles that day. And I came back like a different person. And I've noticed this cycle over and over and over again. That if I can just go and do something, clear the brain, think about, you know, all those wonderful people that I've met and have helped me, supported me, cheered me on, partnered with me, then, you know, I could, I could, you know, get past those, those negative hurdles.

15:00 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I think for me that it's, it's a similar trick, right? I mean, when, when I'm down, it's getting into action. It's, it's just doing something, whether it's something physical or it's just, you know, let me, let me knock off a couple of easy things off of my to-do list and sort of start to build that momentum and feel like I'm starting to accomplish things again. That typically will sort of turn the mindset around rather than just wallowing in it and, you know, delving into Netflix or wherever else you go, or, or worse when you're in those situations. Well, let… now let's really, I mean, just dig into the nitty-gritty parts of the process. And I guess we probably need to dissect each of these individually because…

15:42 Abel Lomas: Oh, actually, Scott.

15:43 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

15:43 Abel Lomas: If you don't mind, let me run off some of the other things that I've been doing that help from a mental perspective, because I really focused on the physical aspect of it, but there's so much more than that. But I'll rattle through some of these things relatively quickly. We don't have to go deep into any of these. So one of those things is I signed up for a leadership course and actually I didn't do this necessarily intentionally, but like I mentioned before, I didn't say no to anything just because I love doing new things and I love engaging with people. And so Jacquelyn Nicholson, who we both know, asked me if I would participate in a leadership course. And I have just really fallen in love with that leadership course. This afternoon I'm taking the last class and it has been amazing. From multiple angles. And, and part, or one of those angles is just, you know, dealing with people, dealing with conflict. And I don't have big desires to go and be a CRO or VP of sales, but I know how important leadership is from the trenches. And that's the type of leader that I want to be. And I want to continue to develop. And so that has really helped me out a ton. And so if Anyone who's listening to this is looking for a great leadership course. Jacquelyn Nicholson, Me, Inc. Phenomenal, phenomenal group and course. Some of the other things I've done… authoring. As you know, I have the Sales Success Story and the upcoming book. I've also authored a children's story. I've started to do some sketch comedy. And all of this creative writing stuff, it's just, it's so much fun. And I'm also planning on doing a storytelling event here via Zoom and Twitch, probably at the end of this month. And so that's just another opportunity to develop and author a story and be able to tell it over the air. So that's going to be a lot of fun. I also have taken up improv. I actually started improv at the beginning of the year. I think it's one of those skills that's really important in sales and happens to be a ton of fun. So I've actually joined a group called the Yes Andersons. We meet once a week on Wednesday evening over Zoom, and doing improv over Zoom is really, really challenging. But, you know, because this team is so committed, we've found ways to work through that, and it's just been a blast. And I still continue to volunteer. I've been spending time with the Women in Revenue and helping them stand up a local chapter here in Austin. The local crew is led by Kim Storen, who's the CMO of RapidDeploy. She is just an amazing leader and so glad to have the opportunity to work with her. And Lead Schott, who is a demand gen expert and also a personal friend of mine. I worked with her at TrustRadius. She is phenomenal. The 3 of us, and I'm going to say those 2 in particular, have really done a ton of heavy lifting to build out the Women in Revenue chapter here in Austin. And just so excited to be part of that group.

18:43 Scott Ingram: It is so funny. I know we're going to talk about the network, but just as you are naming some of these Folks, it's it's incredible how many places our networks overlap, which you know it's it's just a function of in some ways Austin is still quite a small town, especially in the in the sales and technology space. I mean between Alex Shootman, who who I've also worked with, and and Lee and Cliff Tealer, and yeah it's it's it's pretty insane. I want to let's go into well first first let me call out. We're gonna load up the resources here. So top1.fm forward slash… gosh, I think this is episode 98, whatever the episode number is… top1.fm forward slash 98. And then I guess I'm gonna have to, have to do this one as top1.fm forward slash Abel-Lomas2 since you've been on before. But we'll try and put links between the 2 episodes on the pages there as well. So if folks want to dig into your original interview, they can do that. But also just want to make All these resources, some of your stories, the Women in Revenue group that I know Deb Rapson is a, is a big part of as well. The work that Jacquelyn Nicholson is doing, who's been on the podcast as well. It's just super fun to, to watch these communities continue to intersect and interact and, and continue to, to improve upon each other. So let's again go back to dissecting each of these processes individually because one was Pre-COVID, I mean, this, this was the, the world was a more normal place as, as we knew it in early 2020 when you went through this process the first time. It was a very, very different situation. And I, I think really relevant for folks again that find themselves in a situation where either they have been laid off or furloughed and need to move on to a new role. Or the other thing that I think we have to be sensitive to these days, I'm talking to a lot of folks who are like, Scott, my my industry is just hosed. Like, we're all underwater, and their opportunity to earn the kind of money that they were making before to take care of their family and everything else has essentially evaporated. And trying to live on a base is, is sometimes not a feasible thing. So, you know, I think this is going to be really helpful to a lot of people that are in different situations. And, and you and I decided to do it just, just over the weekend. It was a, it was a pretty last-minute thing. We're turning around, turning this around real quickly. And I got a call from, from somebody else in the community just yesterday who was in a great place in a startup, but the ability to raise money for startups these days has gone away in a lot of different areas. So I really think this is going to be helpful for a lot of different people. But let's go through the process the first time. You gave us a hint at what your schedule was looking like, and you were, you were super, super busy. But what was the approach like? How were you structuring that schedule? And what What was your process?

21:34 Abel Lomas: So it was a mix of things. And I could tell you interviews with the right companies was always the priority, but, you know, interviews don't come first. What comes first is the networking. And so what I did, and, you know, my network today on LinkedIn is several thousand people. And so, and I don't say that to boast. I say that just to point out that that's like way too many people to hit up all at once. And so it's really trying to navigate through that list of people through that network and trying to figure out, you know, who should I reach out to? Who from my former customer base? Who from, you know, my former teammates? Obviously there's going to be, you know, friends of mine, but then it's also, you know, what companies should I be talking to? And that was actually a really important lens to apply. Is, you know, what companies look interesting and then who from my network can I leverage? And so if you think about job boards, let's talk about those for just a second, because I do use them, but not in the traditional way. And I don't think I have any big secrets here, but I think it's really important to remind people of this. So I, in my 20-plus-year career, I've never once landed a job through a job board. And I'm not going to suggest that they don't work, but it is just a… it's a numbers game. And unless you want to spend all of your time hitting apply and never talking to a human, then it's just… that's just not the way I operate. And so I would use the job boards just to assess what companies were hiring. And then if those jobs and opportunities and companies looked interesting, then I would start to dig into my network. Who do I know? What former customer now works for that company? What former teammates now work for that company? And if I don't have a direct connection, then who in my network can I leverage to open a door within that company that can give me access to the head of sales and other people within that organization? And in the very rare case where I didn't have a direct connection, it was, you know, how am I going to be really creative? With getting direct access to the recruiter and the head of sales that doesn't involve me applying over the internet. And that's how I would leverage the job boards. And, and really, you know, it allowed me to figure out, you know, what companies were good to target without, you know, spending the time just spinning my wheels hitting the apply button.

24:05 Scott Ingram: So one of the things, the advice that I frequently give around this, and I, I just looked this up because I, I shared it as a tip on the Daily Sales Tip at one So tip 351 was looking for a new sales job is a sales job, and I know that was sort of the approach that you took. And I wonder if we can even sort of frame it along those lines because I think of the first thing that you do is you kind of define and prioritize your territory, right? Who am I going to target? Who am I going to put energy into going after with the goal of I need to build a really strong pipeline, right? I need to have a good set of multiple opportunities. The thing that's always been fascinating to me, and I have this like perverse enjoyment of, of looking for a job because it's the only time… I mean, I, again, I'm just, I'm a sales nerd, right? Like I love doing it. But what's unique about it is it's the only time that I get to apply true scarcity because I can only sell myself once. I can only have one full-time job. And so that was always sort of a fascinating prospect to me because if you do it right, you're almost creating a little bit of a bidding war, right? And, you know, I get to be, you know, running the RFP process and get to be procurement and pit people against each other in the way that they're coming together. But how did you go through… and I know really prioritizing the things that you wanted was a core part of this… how did you go about sort of identifying those companies and figuring out these are the ones that I should be approaching that look to be the right fit?

25:43 Abel Lomas: Yeah, so it's looking at, you know, the market they're in. Is it a growth market? Is it flat? Is it stagnant? Is it going in the opposite direction? So obviously, you know, you want to be in growth markets and trying to assess from the outside what is the culture, what is it like to work for that company. So that's one of those reasons why having an insider or multiple insiders is so important because you can have a really candid conversation around what is it really like to work for that company. And if the culture isn't a good fit, then I don't even want to waste my time. And it is really the number one thing in my book. So, so when I, when I talk about prioritizing the must-haves, I dig into the company's culture. And so that is, is a really important part about, you know, making up my, my priority list. So is there a good opportunity and do they have a good, good culture? If not, it doesn't go on the list.

26:37 Scott Ingram: And Abel, on the culture side, are you looking at just the company culture or are you also trying to dig into the sales culture a little bit?

26:47 Abel Lomas: Both, both are critical because if you have, let's say you have a great sales culture and a bad company culture, well, eventually that company culture will creep into sales. And it'll wipe out the sales team and you'll see high turnover and it just, it won't be fun. And the reverse of that, you know, great company culture, but poor sales culture. Well, that's a non-starter. You don't want to be in that environment. You know, toxicity isn't healthy for anybody and you just can't be successful. They could offer you, you know, a package for $10 million a year and chances are you won't make that money because the culture will be so bad and you'll be wanting to run out of there as quickly, quick as possible. So culture is just critical, and I look at culture across the company.

27:35 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. So once you've got that list and you're, you're doing the networking and you're, you know, kind of you're reaching out to folks that you think might be able to bring you into those organizations, I, I guess let's just talk about the specifics of networking is such a vague word. What does it mean specifically to you when you're networking? What are you actually doing?

27:59 Abel Lomas: Great, great question. So step number 1 is, who do I know at that company? And sometimes you don't know anybody at that company. So it's, who do I know that can put me in contact with somebody in the company and have a real conversation? But that is just the first level. There are multiple levels to go into. There was this one particular opportunity that I was really focused on in that first job hunt. And I didn't know anyone at the company, but a friend of mine put me in contact with the head of sales. And that was how I broke into that company. But then as I started to dig into, you know, more about that company, as I was so interested in them, I found that I knew one of the VCs. And these are people that I met, you know, 20 years ago and we're not necessarily, you know, close buddies, but I reached out to them and guess what? They took my call and they started to coach me on the people inside the company, on what they're all about and who they are and shared some insights about the customers. And then I realized that I knew some people within their customers. And so I reached out to their customers and I talked about What was your experience like doing business with them? Would you do business with them again? And, you know, some of these people that I talked to, they told me such great stories that I could leverage with my conversations with this company. And that was huge. And so when you're, when you're thinking about networking, it's not just that surface level of who do I know in the company, but it's really taking a full circle around, around, you know, leadership, around investors, customers, employees, like the whole thing. And when you can do that level of homework and get that level of visibility, you're going to really know if you want to work for that company. It's going to help you to answer those questions about the culture and help you to answer those questions about the opportunity as to whether or not you can be successful in that company.

30:01 Scott Ingram: Such good stuff. I mean, I've talked quite a bit before about just the importance of doing your due diligence before taking any kind of role. And I think all the things you're talking about are not only an important part of that process, but it's also going to differentiate you massively, right? When people start hearing your name from all sorts of different parts within the organization and then being able to leverage, gosh, if you've got a great client story, you shared a great tip yourself on the Daily Sales Tips podcast. I guess we just did that in the last week or 2 about how you ran your process or the best way to structure the process when somebody asks you to do a mock presentation. Well, gosh, if you've got a real customer success story that you captured yourself that you can bring into that conversation, that's game-changing.

30:51 Abel Lomas: Absolutely. It is really, really important. And so it's important to go and do your research. So who are the companies that they have on their websites? Their case studies and that sort of thing. But you just know that just like if you're a buyer, that those are all biased, they're all their own words and that sort of thing. So it's really important to go in and look at other third-party resources like G2 and TrustRadius, go and look at Glassdoor for employee reactions to the internal life, but then leveraging some of those names that pop up in those resources to actually go and reach out to them directly. And you'll be amazed at what you can learn as a result of that.

31:29 Scott Ingram: So again, great, great resources. I mean, if folks aren't using G2 and TrustRadius and Glassdoor, I mean, I think those are all important things. Obviously, we'll put those in the show notes. Another one that I think is useful from a due diligence perspective and just gaining some context in the startup space in particular and understanding where a company is. Obviously, if it's a public company, you want to be reading 10-Ks and annual reports and those types of things. But for startups, Crunchbase is a great resource. Is that a tool that you found yourself using?

31:59 Abel Lomas: Absolutely. For earlier stage companies I was looking at, it's a critical resource just to understand what series are they on, Series A, B, C, how much money have they raised. And, and that way, when you get into conversations with the leadership of the company, you can ask them about their, their burn, where they are with their fundraising. And really get a sense as to how healthy the business is. And I am no financial expert when it comes to companies raising capital. So it's important to go and talk to other people about what does this mean? So one company in particular that I won't mention that I was looking at, they had several Series As and I didn't understand what that meant. And so I talked to a VC friend of mine And, you know, his quick reaction was, well, I don't know if that's the best company of the companies you've given me to look at for you. And let me tell you why. And then he explained what all of that meant. And then I took that information. I didn't just qualify them out because of that. I took that information back and had conversations with the leadership about it just to get their perspective around why did you fundraise in this manner? And, and how does this impact your, your growth projections and, you know, the overall health of the financials for the business? And so I think that's really an important way to assess companies. And to your point earlier, Scott, it's another way that you differentiate yourself within that process.

33:29 Scott Ingram: Yeah, such great stuff. Well, let's, let's kind of wrap up the round 1 process because I think the second round is going to be the one that's that's even more relevant because I know looking for a job in the, in the current landscape is a totally different game. So bring us, bring us to the conclusion of round 1. How did that play out? Any other kind of core lessons learned or key parts of the process? And then, and then let's dissect the next one.

33:55 Abel Lomas: Sure. So just to kind of put a bow on, on that round, I was looking at Workfront And I was really curious about him because of Alex Shootman and the amount of respect that I have for him as a person, as a leader. And as I started digging into the company, I found a gentleman by the name of Ewan August. Ewan was one of my customers at IBM, and I just, I love that guy. He's such an amazing person and he's so friendly, and I miss seeing him in person. He's probably 6'6. He makes me feel like this really tiny person. And when I shake his hand, you know, his hand like wraps around mine twice. He's just, you know, this enormous person, enormous personality, and such an amazing guy. But I reached out to him and told him that I was interested. I asked him if he would be kind enough to refer me in, and he did. And I was just blown away with their process. They did this assessment test, which I really can't remember a lot of details, but apparently I scored really well. In that assessment test, and which ultimately connected me with the recruiter, with the hiring team, with Clint Freeman. And we just kind of went through that process. I'll never forget meeting Clint in person the first time. He flew into Austin on business and we met at a Starbucks. This is, you know, several meetings in at this point, but first time in person. And he tells me that he had literally interviewed over 100 people, and it was just so critical that you find the right person. And he told me, Abel, you are worth the wait. And, you know, when someone makes a comment like that to you and the company is right, culture is right, the opportunity is right, how do you say no to that? I was just, you know, so touched and floored, I had to say yes. And so thankful I did. Again, you know, so many great people that I added to my network. And that I can count as friends as a result of going to Workfront.

35:53 Scott Ingram: So great, so great. So now here we are a couple months later, we're in the middle of… I mean, when, when you got laid off, I mean, we were in the depths of full-blown lockdown quarantine. I want to walk through the details, but I want to understand kind of what was your mindset on the, on the onset of that, and, and how were you thinking of that you were going to approach it having just successfully gone through it fairly recently? And, and, you know, what were you going to carry over and that type of thing?

36:23 Abel Lomas: Great question. And let me start with the mindset because that is so important. What I'm going to tell you might not sound true, but believe me, it is true. When I was laid off from Workfront, although I love that company, I love people, being laid off in an environment where I wasn't necessarily feeling very successful. And I was 2 months in. And by the way, I did close a couple of tiny transactions, but, you know, still it wasn't like anything to write home about, but it was, it was freeing. It was really, really freeing. And what I mean by that is I was now in a situation where the environment was so challenging, so new, so like raw and different. And now all of a sudden I had the opportunity to go, okay, the world has changed. I need to go and find something different. And versus trying to figure out how to make that work. And so, you know, when, when I had the conversation with Steve Affleck that I was being let go, we actually had some great laughs. We were laughing our butts off in that conversation. And, you know, I was just, I was thankful, quite frankly, and not to leave Workfront, but to be free and to go and find something that is going to work for me in this new economy, in the midst of this pandemic.

37:51 Scott Ingram: Love that. Love that. And again, I think it all comes down to the beginning of these things. How do you frame it? How do you think of it? Is, is it a negative? Is it a positive? I mean, I told, and I only ever tell it in the, in the first Sales Success Stories book, and obviously that audiobook. I don't tell the story anywhere else just because I think it's really important to get all of the pieces right. But man, there was a time I got fired and, you know, decided I was going to name this chapter, and it literally became true. I was going to name this chapter fired up as I was in the parking lot driving away from that office building for the last time. And again, I think it's just the mental state that you put yourself in and is this a positive, is this a negative? And I love this idea of, look, I'm now free to go get myself into the right position and the right role and the right company given a completely different economic landscape.

38:51 Abel Lomas: Absolutely. And that's, I think that was the right way to look at it. In fact, I've never done this before when I've been on the hunt, but for a new role, but I did this for the first time. I wrote on LinkedIn that it was time for something new, but I took a very different approach to that. Again, I'm a very positive thinking person. And oftentimes when people get laid off, you see a lot of their emotion coming through in their post of You know, I just got laid off. This sucks. I need help. And it's great that they're acknowledging that they need help. But, you know, there's so much negativity around us already in this pandemic that I think that deflects, you know, people versus getting people to really help you. And you have to tell people how to help you. And so I wrote this short piece on LinkedIn about how excited I was about this new opportunity, this new journey. And I think I laid out, you know, 3 or 4 different ways that you could help me. And that was huge. And it's one of the things that I love about LinkedIn. You know, you put yourself out there and then, you know, you get all these responses. And there was a couple of people in particular that I connected with immediately. And when I published that, and they actually told me, Abel, you need to make some edits. One of those was, was my good friend Christine Hudson. And she calls me up immediately. She goes, Abel, is this really good news? And I told her, yes, it's great news. And she goes, but it doesn't necessarily feel like it should be good news. I'm like, yes, it's good news. And so we talked about it a little bit and she actually convinced me that there was an element that I should change in there because it probably shared a little bit too much information about my departure from Workfront. It was literally like 2 words. But I looked at that from her perspective. I'm like, yep, you're right. Thank you, Christine. And it's always good to have those friends that will help you to make good, clear decisions. But that, I think, was a really, really important part of launching that new journey. Another person that helped me in drafting that was my friend Emily Sutomac. She's such a gifted writer. And so I drafted, I shared it with her. She like ripped it to shreds and sent it back before I hit the publish button. And so it's really good to have friends like that. And so that way you're not, you know, saying things that you don't necessarily mean to say, and you're setting the right tone about what you're trying to do. And it's really, really thoughtful versus being very emotional and reactionary.

41:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah. We'll actually find a link to that post and include that in the show notes as well, because one of the things that you said I think is so critically important is this idea of you have to be specific about telling people how they can help you. Because just asking for help generically, it's almost disempowering. It's like, well, I like you, Abel, I want to be able to help you, I don't know what to do. And so if you can kind of help them and get really, really specific about this, these are the areas, or this is the thing, if you can make this introduction, or if you can help me in these ways, you say just a little bit more about that, about being specific and maybe what some of those specifics were?

42:04 Abel Lomas: You know, I'd have to go back and look at that, what I wrote, but it was things like, you know, I want to explore, you know, opportunities with these types of companies and I want to explore some consulting opportunities and that opened up some doors. And I want to, you know, do some fun things like, you know, riding bikes and authoring some stuff. So a lot of these things that I talked about earlier that I've been doing. These were things that I mentioned in that post, and they're all things that happened not as a result of writing that, but it was just me framing out, here's the things that I really want to go and do. And people reacted to that in a very positive way. And there was people that I didn't know that reached out to me and wanted to chat about a lot of these things. And so that was, that was huge. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of name dropping. I keep forgetting to mention this name, a gentleman by the name of Oliver Meek. And I mentioned him because I've never met Oliver in person. I was connected to him by a friend of mine, Seth Derocher. And he, for whatever reason, he gets a lot of recruiters that are always looking at his profile. And every time he'd get a new recruiter, you know, they would reach out to him. He'd push that recruiter to me. And after about, I don't know, 4 or 5 of these, in over the course of like 2 or 3 days, I asked a recruiter like, what is it about Oliver's profile that recruiters keep asking him if he's interested in a job? And that was actually an interesting exercise because, you know, she walked me through some of the elements of his profile that she believes, you know, the algorithms were picking up his profile. And then she went and looked at mine, and, you know, while my profile was really strong, there was a couple areas where she's like, Yeah, you have some depth where Oliver doesn't on your profile, but these areas of his profile are areas where you should, you know, build up some more. And so that was really insightful. So just being like a curious person and trying to understand how some of these things work and always trying to refine is a really important thing to do as well.

44:05 Scott Ingram: Well, we have to get into a couple of specifics there.

44:08 Abel Lomas: So what were some of those elements of Oliver's profiles that were recruiter So let's see, when I changed my job the other day, it automatically updated my little subject line or subtitle on my profile, which was a little bit annoying. So thank you, LinkedIn, for automatically doing that for me. But that was one of the things I'd actually changed it to include, you know, things that I'm really passionate about: servant leadership, being an author. I think I had some things in there about Gosh, I can't remember. I need to go. I need to change it back because it kind of annoyed me that LinkedIn automatically changed it just because I changed my job. But that was a really important thing. So telling people, you know, who are you right below your name is really, really important, or what you're all about, because you are not a job title and you are a human that has very unique aspects to everything you do every single day. And so I had come up with some, some words that were important to me and I used those. And so when my name popped up on LinkedIn, you saw, you know, servant leader, you saw, you know, author and that type of thing. And that's one of those things. The other thing that I had avoided doing for years now on LinkedIn, because I didn't want my LinkedIn to look like a resume and I still don't, by the way, but I added in, you know, just a profile description. And I did not take the one that LinkedIn suggested. I wrote my own and I wanted it to be, you know, from me. I wanted it to be authentic. Some of the other things I did, so I've been on several podcasts now, as I mentioned, I've also been published. And so adding those as some highlights on my profile were also really important to add. What I don't include on my profile, and I do this very intentionally, is I don't have a long list of customers that I've done business with. I don't have my percentages of quota attainment, or, you know, the millions of dollars in revenue that I've generated. It just, you know, that stuff belongs on a resume because I'm also mindful of, you know, I don't want buyers who come and look at my profile to just see me as some guy that only cares about the transaction because that's not who I am. I care about them. I care about their success. I care about how we can help them. And so if my profile comes off as a resume just because it helps recruiters, then it's not doing the job that I want it to do in, you know, everything else that I do from a day-to-day perspective.

46:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I think that's important is finding that right balance. And, you know, you may have to reposition your profile one way for a period of time. And then once you're back in that role, really reorient it around who your buyer is and what they're going to be looking for. Which is very different. You know, it's what you don't want is the quota crusher profile. Like, I'm all about smashing quota. Like, that is not particularly attractive to somebody that's looking to do business with you.

47:03 Abel Lomas: Correct, correct. Totally agree.

47:05 Scott Ingram: Absolutely. Well, let's, let's go back to again the details of the process in this second round. So we talked a little bit about the mindset and how you set off on this journey. Walk us through kind of the nitty-gritty and what you did and what the strategy is and what the approach was as you worked through this in a lockdown.

47:24 Abel Lomas: Absolutely. So one of the first people I reached out to was a guy by the name of Mark Bodman. Mark is a customer of mine from, gosh, 20 years ago. And he used to work at Dell at the time I worked at True. And, you know, we became more than just, you know, customer-vendor relationship. We became friends. I met his family, his 2 daughters who were quite young back in the day. We eventually worked together, you know, product manager, probably got his title wrong. I didn't look up his latest title on LinkedIn, but he's over at ServiceNow and reached out to him just to catch up and talk about ServiceNow and what they're up to and their amazing growth in the middle of this pandemic. And that actually kind of opened my eyes, not just to ServiceNow, but also to, you know, the type of company that I should be targeting in a pandemic, you know, companies that are growing regardless of the economy and what's going on with everything else in our crazy world. So while I didn't find anything that was suitable for me at the moment within ServiceNow, it just kind of changed my perspective around how I was going to spend my time. Within my network. I think, you know, one of my calls after that was to my friend John Sternberg. John, by the way, is one of the most talented and incredible salespeople I've ever known and has worked at salesforce.com for over 10 years now. And every time we connect, which isn't nearly often enough, it's just like, you know, 2 old friends that get to reconnect. And, and back in the day, I was at Moat, or we're both working promotive in today's terms. I was his BDR. And, you know, when I talk about relationships and people, this is why it's so important because someone you met so long ago can still have an impact on your life today. And I think that the two of us still have an impact on each other, even though we don't talk very often. And, you know, he helped me to get into a recruiting process at salesforce.com. And that was a great experience. I met a ton of fantastic people. I love the Salesforce ecosystem and really enjoyed that part of the process. During the first search, late in the process, when I was already about to sign on with Workfront, I had connected with Kathy Giroux from Xant. And I remember having a really fantastic conversation with her and it was kind of an unideal situation because I was schedule-wise, you know, that, that process was so crazy. I wasn't in an ideal spot and I was actually sitting in a car in a parking lot. But the conversation was so memorable that I had to call Kathy back and see if she was still hiring. And I'm so glad I did because, you know, I felt like, you know, even though I don't know Kathy well, even yet today. I just felt like she was an old friend and someone that I could learn a lot from and someone that would be a really good partner. And as I began to explore more of that organization at XANT and the leadership team and my peers, I was just blown away with the people. And so, you know, it was, it was doing those types of things. So it was the really, really thoughtful things versus the, you know, the spray and pray approach of let me just go and hit as many people as I am. So, you know, who are people that I want to work with again, or who are people that I haven't worked with before that I wanted to work with? And that was the mindfulness that I took to this most recent search, and it allowed me to, to be a lot more calm, a lot more thoughtful, a lot more precise in the things that I did day to day, and it gave me the freedom to to go and really take care of myself and do a lot of those activities that I had discussed earlier.

51:29 Scott Ingram: You know, I think that's such an interesting way to frame things, right? And as you're thinking through, one of the places I always start is I just go through my network and I go through LinkedIn and think about who, to your point, there's thousands of people I could talk to. Who do I want to talk to, right? Who are the people that jump out and might be in a position to point me in the right direction or make the right introduction or those types of things. But man, that idea of who are the people that I loved working with or would love an opportunity to work with, such a fascinating way to sort of think about, think about that. Well, Abel, let's, let's make this really explicit for the person listening to this that came to this episode thinking, you know, I need to find a new job for, for whatever reason and I need to start this process. What advice would you give them to work through that successfully and end up in a great place like you have at Xan?

52:30 Abel Lomas: It's, you've got to build out a list of targets and that list of targets you can make in a number of different ways. It's, you know, it's looking at the job boards to see what companies are hiring. It's looking at those companies to see if they're companies that you really want to work for in terms of culture, financial strength, that sort of thing, and opening up your network and finding those people that are special to you in some way that, you know, have a meaningful relationship, whether it's a newer relationship or an older relationship, and then working the process, working the pipeline. If something falls out of the pipeline, It shouldn't be a devastating blow, even if it might hurt in the moment. You know, you should have a backfill for it because you're working a pipeline of opportunities. And then just, you know, making sure that I said this before, you know, prioritizing your, your, your around. I knew for me, it's always these 2 things. It's culture followed by opportunity. And so when you get into those conversations, if you find that they meet your must-haves, then work that like the most important sales cycle of your, of your career and respect the process. Ask them what their process is and manage that process. Close for the next steps. Ask for the people, do the homework. You know, if they're a public company, as you pointed out earlier, read their 10-K and look at their risk profile and try and understand, you know, how they're mitigating those risks as a business and really understand their differentiators. When I was looking at Xant at first, quite frankly, I told Kathy, I said, look, you look like some of these other companies. Why are you different? And I won't mention those companies. Why are you different? And when she started to explain it to me, I went from being someone who liked this person personally to being a believer in that company and believer in their differentiators and believe that I could win as a result of, A, those people and the culture, and B, the opportunity that their technology presents in the market. And so, you know, doing those things, being very thoughtful about them, I think are just really important in managing that process.

54:50 Scott Ingram: It is so interesting that you talked about the believer thing, because one of the things, you know, when I have given presentations to sort of distill all of the wisdom that I've gained through talking to… gosh, I'm getting close to 100 folks that I've interviewed here on this podcast. The very first place I always start is belief. And it's mindset, but it's a little bit more specific than mindset because I think if you're truly going to be number one, if you're going to find extraordinary levels of success, you have to believe not only in yourself, but you have to believe in what you're selling. Because if, if you don't… I mean, I've, I've heard sales being described as a transference of belief. Well, if you don't believe, what the heck is there to transfer? So I, I love that you brought that up. Let me ask just one last question, and that is, I mean, is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that, that really needs to be said on this subject?

55:48 Abel Lomas: You know, there's a lot of like finer points that I probably haven't gone into it in detail, but I think these are things that we all know. It's just a matter of, are you doing it? So every single conversation requires a follow-up note within 24 hours. Like, don't put it off, just get it done and make sure that you are being a sounding board for what you heard. And these don't have to be long emails. And typically, you know, higher up in the organization, the less or the shorter my email would be, but it was still really important. So there was an example of one of the VPs I spoke with that walked me through a process verbally. So this wasn't on a PowerPoint or whiteboard or anything, but he just kind of walked me through this process. And I was so fascinated by this process, I was literally drawing it while we were in the conversation. And after the conversation, instead of just sending him Hey, thanks for walking me through the process. I went to Miro, I created a Miro board, and I diagrammed the process. And in my response back to him, I thanked him for his time. I thanked him for walking me through the process. And I said, I wanted to make sure that I heard you right, because I think it's so interesting and it's a different perspective that I've ever heard of before. So I diagrammed it as part of my follow-up to you. Well, you know what? That was a huge differentiator for me, and it was just me being curious and being respectful of the process. And so, you know, doing things like that are really important. Also, I'll call out the presentation process, and, you know, I know you'll put a link to that Daily Sales Tip, but that process is critically important. The one thing I probably didn't say in that Daily Sales Tip is You know, have fun. That presentation should be a representation of you, the person, not just, you know, the facts and information that you've collected. And so just have fun with it. And I have fun with all this stuff, so I usually don't have a problem expressing that. But, you know, just make sure that it captures your personality of who you are, because at the end of the day, that's what they're hiring. They're hiring a personality. They're hiring an amazing human. They're not hiring someone that can pound out widgets. So be yourself and trust yourself and ask your network for help. But just be mindful of asking what kind of help you need, and you will get it.

58:17 Scott Ingram: So good. They're hiring an amazing human, I would say. So be an amazing human and make that decision easy. I'm going to do something here on the, on the back end that'll be ready when we release this episode. I'm going to make a Spotify playlist called Sales Job Search Tips. So if you just go into Spotify and you search for sales jobs or sales job search, it should come up. Obviously we'll have a link to it in the show notes as well. And I'm going to put together all of the different sales tips that are specific to this process. There've been a number of them just kind of quickly skimming through things. I saw some interesting stuff very recently, actually, from Todd Caponi. Abel, you've shared a couple of ideas. I've contributed a few. I think I may have pulled a clip out of an interview with, with Dayna Leaman way back in the day. So I'm gonna put those all into just one place. So again, if, if you're in this spot and you need some inspiration, you need some more ideas as you're executing this process and looking to land a great new opportunity that's gonna put you in a great position, we will put that all together for you there. Again, as always, you can find all that stuff, top1.fm. I hope when you're there, you'll join the listener list. There's a lot of really great stuff coming here down the pike as we start to build the agenda for the Sales Success Summit. There's going to be some really interesting ways that you'll be able to access that. And the folks on that list always get first crack at some of those opportunities. Abel, thank you for not only sharing your story with us again, but carving out some time early in the morning on literally Day two in this new role. This is amazing. You're amazing. I appreciate you, and man, am I glad you're part of my network.

59:57 Abel Lomas: Likewise, Scott. I'm so thankful that you're part of mine, and it's just been such a fun journey ever since we stumbled into each other's lives a year and a half ago.

1:00:06 Scott Ingram: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our. Newsletter at top1.fm.