67: Stephen Holgate - Dale Carnegie's Most Consistent Top Sales Performer

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm.

0:21 Scott Ingram: Here's your host, Scott Ingram. This episode is brought to you thanks to the generous support of Dale Carnegie. We are getting ready to do a webinar together that I'll tell you about in just just a few minutes, but if you want to get the details and just register right away because you know it's going to be great, then click over to top1.fm/dale. Now, today's guest is actually one of the top sellers globally for Dale Carnegie, and that's Stephen Holgate. Welcome to the show, Stephen.

0:49 Stephen Holgate: Thank you for having me.

0:50 Scott Ingram: So, we'll put all of this into context soon, but I want to jump right into some immediate value like we always do and ask you to talk about the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your sales success working with Dale Carnegie.

1:05 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, thank you. You know, it's been interesting. I've been listening to the other podcasts that you've been doing over the last few months, and there's been so many good ideas for these top 3. I just, I really felt the pressure of having to come up with 3 of my own that I found to be successful from my perspective. And I'm sure there's many more that could be, but for me, one of them is certainly about our mindset and attitude. How do we be the sort of person that can lead client interactions powerfully. You know, there's a lot of things that's about maybe there's some tactics and things we can do, but are we being the person who's appropriate? So that's one. The second would be around asking more consultative questions. I think as salespeople, sometimes we stop short of probing as much as we could and really finding out all that we could from a client to truly offer them a customized solution. And the third area, just around being memorable, having something about us that's unique, that's different, that in a competitive landscape really helps us stand out from everybody else who a client might be speaking with.

2:13 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. Well, let's talk about each of those. I'm really curious about when you say, be the kind of salesperson, who do you try to be?

2:22 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, for me, it's around a mindset of being somebody who puts the client first. The mentality that says, I have a willingness to help, I want to be a problem solver. And then that shows up as a baseline to say, well, if this is who I'm being, I'm being the sort of individual who really cares about outcomes for them, really wants to make sure that whatever we're offering is the right solution for the client, a lot of the tactics just flow out of that. That if we genuinely care about the results, then we're going to put the time in that it takes to do it. We're going to be persistent with our recommendations when we know we've got the right solution. So just the mentality that we're there to serve them, I found has been really helpful.

3:11 Scott Ingram: Yeah, super solid. And then your second one was about just asking deeper questions. Do you have a favorite question or a path that you like to go down that's maybe a little bit unique?

3:21 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, I'll answer sort of both parts of that. The path question, first of all, so, and this is very much a Dale Carnegie methodology, And I've been lucky enough to be with the company for 17 years. So when I began with the organization, we of course do our own internal sales training. So I learned like a framework for consultative questioning back then that I still use today. Very simply, there's 4 stages of it. The first stage of questioning around everything to do with the as-is situation, what's going on in the client's organization right now. Then the should-be situation, which is, okay, nice that this is how things are now. What would you want them to be? How should they be different? If you could wave a magic wand and you had things your own way, how would they be showing up? So as is, then should be. Third category of questions around some of the challenges that the client's already been facing in getting from where they are now to where they want to be in relation to their specific goals, objectives. And the final question around the payout. What's in it for them? They talk about wanting to make XYZ change for the organization, but why is that a driver? What's the cause behind needing to make that change? And perhaps when that change initiative is implemented, then how will it affect both the company and the individual themselves? So as a path or a framework for questioning, it's where are you now? Where do you want to be? What are the challenges getting in the way? And why is this all important? In terms of specific questions or favorite go-to questions, more just like a category of questions, I call them insight questions or insightful questions, which is bringing a piece of knowledge to the client and then asking a follow-up question around it. So there might be something that you've learned about what other clients in a similar industry, similar area are going through. Relating that piece of information and then asking, how does that show up for yourselves? What's been your experience in that particular area?

5:24 Scott Ingram: Man, that was a great set of stuff. I'm glad I asked that question. And then your last point was being memorable. What is that for you? How do you try and be memorable?

5:35 Stephen Holgate: You know, it's interesting. Obviously, your listeners by now have realized that my accent is probably not the same that they're used to hearing throughout the US. So I've lived in New York now for almost 10 years. I grew up in Australia. Lived in London for 5 years. And as much as there's a piece of me who doesn't like to admit this, I think I would be lying if I didn't acknowledge that some degree of my success in sales is because I have an Australian accent. I think that is the reality, that there is some level of point of difference or memorability because I have an Australian accent. Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that an accent alone would be enough to be doing well in sales, but I do think that when I've been prospecting, when I'm having conversations with clients, when I'm walking around a client's office, I think it's easier for them to remember me as the Australian guy, something that stands out as a point of difference. So for me, that's the level of being memorable. For other people, other salespeople, I mean, you might be somebody who's memorable because you're humorous, because you're fastidious, because you're the go-to person for whatever it is. There might be something unique about anybody listening to this podcast that says, okay, that's what's special about me. I'm going to lean into that. I'm going to amplify that uniqueness. Hopefully it's a positive uniqueness and amplify that uniqueness and make it as something that stands out.

7:01 Scott Ingram: There you go. That's great stuff. So give us the context now. Talk about… you've been at Dale Carnegie for 17 years. I think your role is a little bit different from maybe a traditional sales role. Talk to us about that a little bit.

7:13 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, sure thing. I mean, I'd mentioned 17 years and you just brought it up again, which I know probably for many listeners is a very long time to stay with one organization. I've been very lucky that I joined the company in a role of marketing and sales and then progressed to be more full-time in sales and also being a trainer. The organization as a whole, Dale Carnegie, we're all about partnering with companies to help develop their people, whether that's leadership development, improving sales revenue, improving client success results. And we do that through delivering training programs. So my role, my official title is Senior Vice President of Client Engagement. What that breaks down to is a hybrid role of selling the training programs that we deliver. And then the hybrid part is, in some cases, myself personally delivering the sales training programs, in other cases, having a team of trainers to implement the projects.

8:09 Scott Ingram: Awesome. Now, before we talk about your results, let me talk about the webinar that I mentioned at the top of the show. On May 21st, Stephen is actually going to turn the tables on me a bit, and we're going to talk about the principles of top 1% level sales success. So listening to these episodes, you get to hear individual stories from top performers like Stephen, but I've been doing these interviews for about 2 and a half years now. And in this webinar, we're going to talk about some of the most consistent themes and guiding principles that seem to be the most common among top performers. The webinar is free, and you'll actually get a copy of B2B Sales Mentors just for attending. So pause the show right now. I promise I won't be offended because I don't want you to forget and click over to top1.fm/dale to register right now. We'll wait. It's okay. All right, Stephen, quantify your results for us a bit. What have you had to do to be one of the top 1% level achievers at Dale Carnegie across nearly 1,000 sellers globally? Right.

9:16 Stephen Holgate: It's quite a lot of different things involved. I started and probably for the first, I don't know exactly how many years, but for the first 10 years or so, I was a very moderate sales performer. I was happy in the balance between delivering some training programs and doing moderately well in sales. And it's been in the last 5 or 6 years that I've really had the selling side of my career take off. I've been particularly fortunate in the last 4 or 5 years. Where I've had one client, a technology company, that actually makes up more than 50% of my total revenue. So the revenue from this one client is more than all of my other clients added together. So I've transitioned from being in a position where I was constantly prospecting and constantly looking for, for new clients to do a few days of training programs every year into I guess somewhat accidentally, or at least not intentionally, finding one company that it's really been a highly developed true partnership. We started with, with this tech company when they had 500 employees. They now have 8,000 employees over the space of just a few years. That growth has happened. And because of the success we had delivering our sales training and presentations skills training programs, in the first year or so with that client. Basically, as they've grown, they've just escalated the partnership, and everybody in that company who joins in a sales position does mandatory Dale Carnegie training to help them be able to sell more as part of their onboarding process. Every client success person does some training. Every person in the national accounts program does, does presentations program. So I've been fortunate that my, my main client has grown so much, and we've been in the right place, able to service them at the right time.

11:11 Scott Ingram: So how much correlation is there between really just finding this client and growing that, that individual client and, and the success you've had over time? Or, or were there other factors?

11:22 Stephen Holgate: I think there's other factors. It's been to a point where I've actually had to turn away some business, or at least hand over to other consultants in Dale Carnegie some of my previous clients so I can service this one in particular. I think I've had to learn skills of account development and networking through an organization. Because although we have this, this one main contract with a main point of contact for it, I've also been getting into different divisions within the company. So the prospecting and the selling aspect, rather than being to sell to whole new companies, it's been a case of who else in that organization can I be speaking with? What other results can we achieve for them? What other problems are being faced in different divisions of the company that we can help with our training solutions? So for me, it's been a growth in the mindset of long-term sustainable year-on-year helping one client with their entire sales enablement leadership development strategy versus constantly on the lookout for different companies, different initiatives, different sectors altogether.

12:31 Scott Ingram: So I love that. I mean, let's talk about that a little bit more, right? This idea of the way that you developed this single account, what some people would refer to as like land and expand, right? So you, you got in, you had this initial relationship. How are you going about… what's, what's sort of the strategy and technique that you apply to, to grow that and get involved in some of these other opportunities within the same account?

12:55 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, sure. This is where I must admit that I'm very fortunate in having this hybrid role of being a salesperson and a trainer. You know, what I, what I sell, I deliver part of it for this client. So I'm privy to some conversations that happen during training programs that allow me to know more about what's going on in the client organization than perhaps I would if my role was limited to being a salesperson. So for those listening to the podcast who are not in that very fortunate position that I'm in, they're in a more traditional sales position where what they sell doesn't allow them to have access to as much information, it might be more a case of being able to create those multiple touchpoints. But for me, it is because I have those touchpoints. I hear the challenges going on in the business. I hear what salespeople in my clients' organizations are saying, that this is what we struggle with. These are the issues. These are some of the roadblocks that we're finding. It allows me to go back to my key decision makers and say, look, this, this is what I'm finding your people struggling with. Here's some suggestions for how we can help. So it's been built out of, again, I guess coming back to my mindset on the top 3… sorry, coming back to the overall thing of the top 3 attributes… is that mindset of how can I help, how can I solve problems, how can I work with you so that your people are getting what they want. And then in that whole process, just being somebody who… and I hope if you ask certainly this client, but any of my clients about my overall approach, it is just one of offering suggestions to improve their business. And again, the product that I sell lends itself to that because that's who we are as an organization as well.

14:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

14:37 Stephen Holgate: Yeah.

14:37 Scott Ingram: You know, it's interesting. I mean, I actually, now that you mentioned it, I do a lot of the same thing. And in fact, just this last week, spent a day and a half, you know, on site with… actually, they're not even one of our clients yet. We're working on that. But there's something about being able to be in a position where you're not in a quote unquote sales conversation, right? So I work for professional services company, and a lot of times we will deliver a strategy workshop or something of that nature, right? And they're extended, and the client has a vested interest in really opening up about, here's what's going on, here's what we're trying to solve, way more than what you can get to in an hour-long, you know, more traditional type of conversation. And I think that that can be applicable to a lot of other people if you think about leveraging your client success team or your onboarding and implementation team. Again, depending on your business, if you can find opportunities, I don't, I don't go to every one of these workshops that I sell, right? You kind of have to pick and choose and decide where you can be, but your opportunity to learn and to connect more broadly too, right? I will absolutely go to a workshop if I know, hey, we've, we're going to have stakeholders from 4 other regions or 3 other divisions that are going to be a part of this that we don't ordinarily interact with. Those are, those are great opportunities. So for you, I'm super curious about what percentage of your time do you spend truly in a sales role versus actually delivering and doing training?

16:08 Stephen Holgate: It's definitely changed over the years. So right now, and for this year and probably last year, I might spend 5 days per month delivering training. And so the other 15 or whatever it is days per month would be more in that sales account development role. So I can say 25% of my time is delivering training, 75% is in the account development, new business development Situation.

16:29 Scott Ingram: Got it. Got it. So let's go way back to the beginning. I'm really curious about what your origin story is. How did you get into sales in the first place?

16:38 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, it's interesting. I sort of… the origin story, to me, that's… I associate that with like Marvel Avengers and X-Men. I'm a big like comic book nerd for those sort of movies as well. So I love the question about the origin story.

16:50 Scott Ingram: Well, Stephen, everybody on this show is a superhero, so that's why we call it that.

16:56 Stephen Holgate: I like it. I like it. The superpower of being in the top 1% of salespeople. But it was, I mean, for me it was, it was actually sort of accidental. So at university in Australia, I did a marketing degree. My first job out of university was in a market analysis position working for a consultancy and all very professional and doing market research. But I think about the age of 23, 24, I really started developing the mindset that I wanted to own my own business or businesses long-term. But I knew that I had a fear of cold calling and a fear of anything at all to do with selling. And so here I was like thinking that, yes, my career trajectory is having my own businesses, but I am frightened to death of reaching out to new people to have conversations. So I thought, well, if this is going to work, I need to get over that. So as a number of Australians do, if they consider themselves, you know, serious business professionals, they move to London. There's, you know, that tie between England being the mother country for Australia. My mother's actually English, my father's Australian, but I had an opportunity as a 23, 24-year-old to move to London. And with that, I think I actually got a little bit of freedom in a sense of back in Australia, I was this perceived, I guess, by my friends as this business professional working for a consultancy. But I think if I'd stayed in my same hometown in Australia, and moved into a cold calling sales job, my friends would probably think there was something wrong with me and thought it was all very weird. But moving to London gave me that freedom of saying, okay, who do I want to be? What do I want to develop? And so landed in London, I was like, all right, I'm just going only to apply for hardcore telesales cold calling jobs and however much they might frighten me, this is what I need to do to develop that skill and get over it. So ended up actually working for a recruitment company, TMP, which was rather large at the time, still is a decent size, making 80 cold calls per day, 5 days per week, being rejected on, I don't know, 79 of those 80 cold calls. So I had that experience and it was literally only just for 6 months I did that. But as much as it was a very difficult, very challenging, soul-destroying experience in ways, it was a great development experience. And it was after that just 6 months that I actually then went to Dale Carnegie in London and said, hey, I'm a very experienced salesperson. I have all of 6 months of sales experience. Do you guys have any jobs? Now, the background there had been that I had read the book that the founder of the company, Dale Carnegie himself, had written called How to Win Friends and Influence People. And that book, without being too cheesy, had literally changed my life. So I was like, okay, this is the company I want to work for. This is the company I can learn from. In order to start my own businesses in the future. And so I took my 6 months of sales experience, somehow managed to convince the Dale Carnegie London office to then give me a job, a hybrid job in sales and doing some marketing work for them. And then it sort of continued from there for the next 17 years. And I've decided I, I don't really need to have my own business, that I have the freedom and autonomy almost to have a business within a business of Dale Carnegie.

20:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it's funny. I mean, that story is pretty common, right? I think most people come into sales somewhat accidentally. I would say that you were a little bit more intentional than most, but with this idea that if I'm going to be an entrepreneur, this is a skill set that I must have. And frankly, I think that so often it's so much better and easier just to be in the sales role because if you go do the entrepreneur thing, sales is just one of 18 things you have to do and be good at. So I think this is such a great opportunity where you don't have to worry about the HR stuff and the finance stuff and all the other pieces. You can just go and sell. And in your case, it sounds like you also get a lot of joy from doing the training itself as well.

21:03 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, absolutely. And you're right about the business ownership thing, seeing so much other work that needs to go into that. I really like the place I am, that I feel I have the level of autonomy that gives me a sense of freedom, but still, you know, yeah, still making it work within a corporate environment.

21:21 Scott Ingram: So if you were starting over again today, is there anything that you would have done differently?

21:26 Stephen Holgate: This is something that really caused me to think about this, you know, thinking through the questions that you were looking at. And this is… this might even go more into my mindset because I found this a very challenging question to answer. And here's the thing that I've realized through thinking about this question is that I don't think there's anything that I would have done differently. Please don't get me wrong. That's not that I'm saying that everything's been perfect and it just like it all worked to goal and to plan and it was just, hey, I followed this path. It was great. It's not that at all. It's more that… right now, I'm very fortunate. I'm in an exceptionally good position. I am very happy with where I am in my life, both professionally and personally. Things are really good. And so part of my fundamental beliefs are that every experience we've had in our past contributes to who we are now, whether they're positive or negative experiences, good or bad, and all that sort of stuff. They all, they all play a part in where we are now. So given that where I am now is very happy in life, then it means even if I look back at the things that annoyed me, frustrated me, were difficult, all of those things were also learning experiences. All of those things I've has helped me be who I am today. So it's all worked out in my favor to be in this position now.

22:47 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So is there one of those experiences, maybe it was good, maybe it was bad, that you found to be the most formative or that contributed the most to getting you to where you are today?

23:01 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, the most formative is a challenge. I don't know that there's one that really stands out in my mind is, you know, that I would hold up as this was it, this was the moment. I know there's definitely lessons I've had along, along the way that as I've looked back, there's been realizations that then has shaped how I, how I go about sales now. I'll give you, give you one example, one that probably still just like bugs me to this day, but it was a good lesson learned for myself. So with this main client who I had, I'd already been working with him for a couple of years One day, one of my points of contact had asked me about a very specific set of training and asked whether we deliver this specific set of training around enterprise solution selling. And at the time, for whatever reason, I don't actually even remember the specifics of this, but for whatever mood I was in or whatever belief I had, whatever was happening, they asked whether we did this specific training. And I said, actually, no, that's not part of our curriculum. No, we don't do that. Cool, right? Conversation over. At the time, I thought she was asking about us delivering like this one-day, never-to-be-repeated program. And I think I just thought, well, that's, you know, we're already doing this other work. The reality is that program's not part of our specialty. That's all it is. It's not worth chasing that one day of training for us. What I realized later, when I found out about 3 months, 6 months' time, is it wasn't for a 1-day training program. It was to launch that program across their entire national accounts program around the world that would have added perhaps 100 days of training per year on an ongoing basis. And me being an absolute moron, obviously didn't do what all of us as good salespeople know, which is I should have been asking follow-up questions and probing and asking more detail and all of that sort of stuff. Which for whatever reason I didn't do at that time. And now I just always think that if ever I hear any opportunity, even if it doesn't initially sound like it hits the sweet spot, to ask more follow-up questions and probe a little bit more deeply and figure out what the true request is, not what the one I'm assuming it is.

25:13 Scott Ingram: That's so fun. It's such a great story. We hear these things, but there's something about having that type of experience that you're like, ah, yeah, got it. Never going to make that mistake again.

25:23 Stephen Holgate: Right.

25:26 Scott Ingram: So, I mean, you've done a lot, you've accomplished a lot. What are you most proud of through all of this?

25:31 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, this is interesting. This comes a little bit to my hybrid role. I'm very proud of the results I get as a trainer, like whether I'm delivering sales training to other people or leadership training or whatever it is. The fact that I can go back to a company and several months later, people come up to me and say, hey, you know, that tactic you taught me, I made an extra $100,000 because of that. That's cool. That's a sense of satisfaction and pride. And I do, I feel good about that. That's in my training role, feeling a sense of accomplishment. In my core salesperson role, I guess there's some links still because I still, for me, the achievement comes from, maybe this is about how I'm hardwired and who I am, but the achievement is when I feel like I'm helping people. So at Dale Carnegie, we have annual conferences where salespeople and trainers from around the world once a year meet up, share ideas, best practices, That sort of sales best practices, Top Gun thing. And to have other salespeople from other parts of the US or other parts of the world come up to me and say things like, oh, I've seen those videos you make for the network to help us as salespeople. I've used those tips that you've given us. And to know that through what I've been doing for the Dale Carnegie Salesperson Network has actually really contributed to other people is for me, that's where I get my achievement. And maybe this is a little bit about, you know, I'm from a city in Australia, 20,000 miles away from here, and at my core, I'm still just like, I'm this Aussie kid who's just made it in New York, I guess. And it's like, oh, hang on, I just still myself… still see myself as just somebody hanging out and having fun and living in this different country and having a good time. And the fact that along the way, I seem to be doing some positive things for other people who I work with That does make me feel good about things.

27:24 Scott Ingram: That's awesome. I mean, a lot of giving back in that. Is there one of those tips or videos that you have recorded that has really just stood above the rest in terms of the impact and the feedback that you've seen that you can tell us about?

27:37 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, I guess it's just in January, I recorded a breakdown of my number one client, this really big one, a breakdown of what I've learned along the way of 5 or 6 years of growing an account, growing it from being what was a project for 6 days of training to last year having delivered 324 days of training. So if you imagine that just in terms of revenue growth, there's obviously a significant thing there. So I think just the video, a lot of people in Carnegie want to be able to grow their clients from just being this ad hoc training provider to being a true solution. We come to you for everything we need. So I think some of the path of how it was able to grow over those 5 years has been helpful for people, which is a little bit like I was saying earlier in the podcast, earlier in the interview, just around looking for those extra opportunities, problem solving, keeping both ears open to hearing the challenges that the client is facing, and then presenting solutions to solve those challenges.

28:38 Scott Ingram: Well, you know, it's interesting that you share that. I feel like this show does that to some extent in that it's kind of like the 4-minute mile, right? And a lot of people have heard this story, like everybody thought it was impossible, nobody could do it. And then one guy did it and everybody went, oh, I guess it is possible. And then lots of people did it, right? So it's, it's that idea of just showing people, here's… this is possible, you can do this, and opening people's eyes to, to what that is and how you can do it. And then, and then it really just lays the path and other people are able to repeat it.

29:10 Stephen Holgate: Yeah. And hopefully I can be that person within Carnegie now who's done something a little bit different in terms of this client growth. And credit where credit's due, there was that person within Carnegie, his name's Darren Germanton, who was my Roger Bannister… Roger being the guy who ran the 4-minute mile, you know, at the time… where I looked at the results he was producing. He was doing over $1 million a year, and that's a high value in terms of training solutions, usually for one salesperson within our company. And I looked at that, I was like, okay, so if Darren's doing this, surely that's something I can aspire to. Surely that's something that he's set the benchmark. He set that this is possible. So he was that person that to me said, if he's doing it, that means there's hope for me.

29:55 Scott Ingram: I love that. And somehow I think I skipped over it. I always like to start early on and kind of talk about the results and what does it take to be a top 1% performer. What has that been for you? What have you been able to do the last few years?

30:07 Stephen Holgate: Sure. So in the last, let's take it the last 5 years, I think I'd mentioned very briefly that that's sort of where my career in sales took off even more. I finished top 5 in the world for Carnegie each of those 5 years. Last fiscal year, I finished number 2 in the world. One of our consultants from Germany got the number 1 place. And this year, I'm on track to finish either 1st or 2nd. Our fiscal year, for some reason, runs from September to August. I mean, it's always been an unusual thing, but that's what we are. And so it's looking like I'm in good shape to finish 1st or 2nd. In terms of attainment to quota and that sort of thing, I'll actually finish this year at more than double my annual quota. So we are, as of recording this right now, we're just over halfway through Dale Carnegie's fiscal year. I've already exceeded my annual quota. So on one hand, it's a case of like, okay, cool, I could just kick back. And on the other hand, there's, there's a lot of opportunity within our company that once we've hit the quota to, to really be in an even better position as the year goes on. So So, yeah, so it's been a good few years, that's for sure.

31:14 Scott Ingram: That's fantastic. Well, and what I love is it's not necessarily about being the outright number one. I think the other thing that's really, really important is just the consistency, right? I see a lot of people who hit what I call the sales lottery, right, where they just happen to be in the right place at the right time and, you know, were able to take advantage of that. But you have been really capitalizing year over year over year, and I think that consistency is really important. About the accomplishments, let's go to the other side of that and talk about the challenges. What have you found? I'll ask this one of two ways, right? Either what have you found to be the most challenging in your experience of the last 4 or 5 years, or maybe take us to a time when, when you were struggling the most and talk us through how you kind of broke through that.

32:06 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, let's go to a time when I was struggling the most. So So I mentioned I've bounced around, lived in different countries, and so I moved to the US, to New York City, 9 and a half years ago. And moved over here with… even though I'd already worked for Carnegie for 8 years and had some experience in selling and some experience in training, moved over here with zero clients, zero contacts, zero friends. And it was just a thing of like, New York City, what an amazing opportunity. Wow, I'll go there for a year or 2 and then go back to the safety of Australia. And obviously that happened differently for me in the end. But when I, when I had to restart everything from scratch here in New York, that was a challenge. I got to a point where my role… and I'm happy being open about this… it's commission only. So very deliberately, intentionally, I want to not have a salary, and so it's commission only. And so in that first year of living in New York, Yeah, I was delivering training programs which was… other people would sell them and I would deliver them. So I was showing up just as a trainer in some cases but then not making the sort of sales revenue that would keep me living in New York. And I'd come over with some savings and expected to be traveling around the US a little bit when I was first here. But after about 12 months, it got to a point where I had used all of my savings. I was looking at my projected income and just, I remember very much believing that I needed… I was going to need to pack it in and move back to Australia. And I don't know, not that necessarily being back in Australia would have instantly given me more money. So I, as I reflect, I don't even know why it was that I thought that was a safer thing to do. But I guess the idea of living in New York City was, you know, it just sounded more expensive and more challenging if I wasn't making it in sales. And then good fortune, whatever it was, I got one client, an insurance company that I remember making $15,000 commission on for delivering leadership training. And it was that $15,000 that just tided me over for a few more months that then I started closing this other client and this other client. And then I had enough of a momentum that things actually picked up. Up. But I remember very much thinking I would not have stayed in New York. I would not have met my American wife now. The entire rest of my life would have been completely different if that one insurance company didn't just give me a yes moments before I decided I need to pack it all in and go back to Australia.

34:47 Scott Ingram: Now, how much of that breakthrough was… I mean, did that also kind of give you that mental edge and some of that confidence to start to build from there? Like, how else did you sort of break through that situation? Because that's dramatic, right? From, okay, it's over, I'm done, I, I don't think I can make it, to, okay, I, I've got this. And then it sounds like you've just kind of continued to grow from that point forward.

35:11 Stephen Holgate: True. So yes, it gave, it gave me, well, it gave me the financial security for one thing. So it gave me the confidence, not even the confidence as a salesperson or the confidence in that way, but just the confidence that, okay, I can eat next month. That's, that's handy. So it gave me that level of confidence and I mean, this is now going back approximately 8 or 9 years, so it's hard to remember the specifics, but I imagine it must have given me some level of like, all right, I'll be fine. I can do this in this foreign strange country. There's enough to get me by. I can do that. So I would imagine that that was a level of a spiral of starting to go, okay, this will be fine. I got this. I can make this work.

35:54 Scott Ingram: Was there an element of just time and territory as well? I feel like there's always… it takes time to sort of ramp up, and especially when everything's new, right? You're dealing with a new culture in a new city and you don't have those relationships. And I imagine you knew the solution pretty well, so that probably wasn't a big challenge. But how much of a factor was that, that you just had to be patient and it was going to take a little bit?

36:19 Stephen Holgate: Significant. And I've said this to my friends before, that I'm lucky in that I've stayed in the same company selling fundamentally the same product for 17 years, but I've done it in 3 different countries. So it's always, you know, when I moved to London from Australia, it was all brand new to me then, so I had to figure that out. Then I moved from London back to Australia, but a different city, and the first time working for Dale Carnegie in Australia. So I was in Sydney at the time, and so that was starting from scratch again. Then I moved to New York, and every time there is a length of time in the game. And I guess I've joked with some of my friends saying, you know, Now that I've been here longer, I almost don't… it's counterintuitive… I don't need the sales skills now that I absolutely needed to have when I first was here. Maybe I'm not explaining that very well, but what I mean is it's almost like because there's… because I've got more time in the game and more of a network and more contacts, it's easier for me right now to be out in front of more companies. And simultaneously, I hope I've developed my sales skills over the time I've been here. But it's like when I needed all of that the most, it was the hardest time to have them because it was, it was new for me being in this new city. So it's a, it's a tough balance. Yeah.

37:35 Scott Ingram: Well, and I think there's an element of that that is kind of the unconscious competence kind of stuff, right? You don't have to focus so hard on, am I doing the right things mechanically from a sales perspective? It's muscle memory and you're able to focus more on… and I think that that's another… I mean, we talk a lot on this show about being really client-centric, and you talked about that as one of your top 3 points. That's really hard to do when you're having to think about everything that you have to do and you're not able yet to focus on the client and what they're trying to do.

38:10 Stephen Holgate: Agreed. Absolutely.

38:12 Scott Ingram: So let's talk about the habits and routines and the way I often like to think about this. Well, let me ask first, are you a morning person or are you a night owl?

38:21 Stephen Holgate: I'm probably more a night owl. And it's interesting, I've heard on some of your other podcasts that you're a morning person. So we're gonna butt heads on that one, but probably, probably more of a night owl.

38:34 Scott Ingram: Well, and the reason I asked that, I don't know that I have been doing this, this recently. I used to always ask and focus on the morning routine. But what I realized is if you're not a morning person, then you just have to survive the morning. That's not when your core routines are. So I would imagine that your core routines are are more evening-oriented. Is that accurate or am I making a screwed-up assumption here?

38:57 Stephen Holgate: No, I think the assumption is correct. And then I'm even more of an anomaly than the average person because I don't have so much of a routine. And possibly that comes a little bit to the hybrid nature of my role. But 5 days a month, I'm delivering a training program. So on those mornings, I am up early. I have checked emails that have come in from overseas. You know, we're with our time zone here in New York being behind the UK, behind Europe and Asia, I'll wake up early in the morning, respond to emails, and then set about my day focused on delivering training. On other days that I'm not delivering training and I might be working from home, I will allow myself to sleep in until my body wakes itself up. I'm, you know, maybe this sounds lazy, whatever, but I let my body wake itself up when it wants to. Unless, you know, if I have a call scheduled at 7 AM or 8 AM, of course I do that. But otherwise, I just sort of wake up when I need to. To work from home and just get into things, responding to emails. But it would be no problem to me that if I'm still working at 6 PM, 7 PM, 8 PM, I might need to schedule a call with Tokyo that therefore is 9 PM my time so that it's 10 AM their time, whatever it is. So it's just very flexible depending on what I need to do for that day. So I'm not so regimented in a routine because of that, I think.

40:19 Scott Ingram: So then talk me through, because not everyone is… I tend to be much more on the regimented routine side, but not everyone is like that. So for those who aren't, what drives things? How do you manage your priorities? What is the structure that you use to make sure that, you know, the work that you're doing is productive and that you're not, you know, just sleeping all day?

40:41 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, it is interesting because it's almost like I'm a contradiction in that I'm not regimented in that way, but then in other ways ways. Like when my team around me in the New York office hears this, they'll laugh at this because they'll be like, Steve, you're ridiculously pedantic and annoying in many ways in that I live off my to-do list, my calendar management. I respond to all emails usually within 24 hours, worst case 48 hours. So I have a… whether it's a drive or just a pedantic nature that says that's what that should be done. So I would be at a loss without my to-do list that I have set up of these are the day's activities. I get frustrated when there's like a calendar appointment that goes in that in 6 weeks' time, somebody has blocked a team meeting over a different team meeting. And it'll be like, well, guys, it's in the calendar. How did you not do that? Now I know it's 6 weeks away, but fix that. That needs to show up in my calendar at a different time. And so I do absolutely, I'll confess and admit to the fact that I am I'm uber pedantic over self-management or self-organization. So once something's in my calendar or on my to-do list, it is there. But if there's nothing in my calendar until 9 AM on a certain day, I might wake up at 8:45 and deal with it that way.

42:05 Scott Ingram: Love it, love it, love it. So let's talk about sort of those pieces. So what are the tools and apps that you're using to manage the calendar and the to-do list? And when do you When do you build them? Is there a certain strategy to the way that you go about executing things in terms of what order, those types of things?

42:23 Stephen Holgate: Sure thing. Very fundamental. I don't have any specific apps or latest technology things that are amazing that I'd necessarily recommend. Our company uses Microsoft Outlook. So for mail and for calendar, I just do that. I'm very specific on color coding things in my calendar. So a regular meeting is in a blue, a A training day is in orange. A training that I have sold being delivered by a different person is in purple. So I have my system of just being able to look at my calendar and very quickly see what types of meetings that I have. And then in terms of my to-do list, it's literally just a Word document. But I think I started doing it this way 15 years ago and just haven't evolved. But the Word document that is set up week at a time, but I'll have this for perhaps 2 months. Months out, a week at a time, and then very obvious bold headings of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, weekend. And then a section on this week's to-do list that is titled Waiting on Responses From, which is my category where I dump things if I've sent out a prospect email or I'm waiting on somebody from one of my clients to get back to me. I know that I could forget it if it's not on my to-do list. So this section that just allows me to to remind myself that I am waiting on a response from this person at this company for this activity to do it. So they're the things. And then in terms of my email structure and setup and habits, it's rare that I finish a day that still has any emails left in the inbox. So I know it's becoming more and more common. You see people with their smartphones that you look at their mail inbox and it'll say 4,712 unread emails. And man, that would stress me out. And that's maybe just a problem that that does cause me so much stress. But even if somebody… if the email said 50 emails left unread, that would be just a stressful situation for me. So my emails, when I have times in the day that I'm responding to them, I either respond and delete or respond and put it into one of my email folders that I have set up in Outlook, like named by different clients, different activities. So I save it, but then it's gone out of my inbox. I have it set up so that it identifies clutter and junk mail, and I only check my clutter box once a day pretty much, and then 99 out of 100 times, just delete everything that's in there. So I have some regimented systems on how I use really basic tools and apps.

44:56 Scott Ingram: Awesome, awesome, awesome. What about how are you managing your sanity and traveling? It sounds like you're doing quite a bit of international travel as well.

45:05 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, I've had to really keep an eye on this. So let's say a couple of years ago, I was delivering more training and doing more travel than I am now. I've deliberately decided to cut back. Both my wife and I are in sales positions. She's a sales leader for her ad agency and we both travel for work. And so we wanted to be more conscious of, you know, if I'd just been away for a week and then she left for the next week, I mean, that was just sort of annoying, the 2 weeks in a row between our travel schedules. So been conscious of cutting back on that. In terms of how I manage the sanity, I really basically use out-of-office email to reduce my stress a little bit. All of my clients know that in addition to being their point of contact, I deliver training programs. If it's not for them, it's for other clients. And so there's rarely an urgent need in the training world that somebody needs to call me and say, Stephen, we need a training session delivered this afternoon. There's nothing ever that urgent. It's always, hey, next month, what can you do for us. So just by having an out-of-office bounce back reduces my stress to let people know that, you know, I'll get back to you within 24 hours, not 1 hour. So that helps. And then I think just the fact that I actually really enjoy travel. I enjoy being in different cities, you know, having lived in different cities. I like… I know you are, if I'm correct, you're based in Austin. I've been there a few times for a client. I love Austin. I get to go to Dublin and London, and I was in Bangalore, India year last year. So I think it's the enjoyment that I get from it that still keeps it fresh and exciting for me. But maintaining that balance of not just saying yes to every possible business trip.

46:45 Scott Ingram: Yeah, smart. Super smart. What about your information diet? What are you reading, listening to, and watching? And when do you do that?

46:53 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, sure. I look to read one business book every month, which, you know, depending on who you ask, they might say, well, that's not enough. You should be reading more than that. Other people say, oh, Wow, one a month, that's 12 a year, that's cool. So I'll read different business books. One that I'm reading at the moment, actually I'll give a shout out to this because I really like it. It's a book that's called Questions That Sell by Paul Cherry. Yeah, I'm about halfway through and one of the best books on sales that I've read in a while. So yeah, that's a really cool book. So reading that one, other times I'll read leadership books, but I don't read fiction. I go to TV and movies for fiction. So anytime I'm reading, it is a business book. Book. And then listening to podcasts. I don't just mean this to be nice to you, but since listening to yours the last couple of months since people in my company put me in touch with it, I found that really valuable. I'm also a big Timothy Ferriss fan for podcasts. And then other than that, I'm just really lucky that I guess my information diet comes a lot from my friends in the company. My best friends, most of them, at least here in the US, work for Dale Carnegie as well. So rightly or wrongly, even when we're out having drinks, having a meal, hanging out, we'll be talking business stuff and client-related things. And so just having my friendship network be very much involved in the same company as I, I learn a lot from just the people who I hang out with.

48:14 Scott Ingram: Great stuff. So I think the answer to this might be pretty obvious, but I'm going to ask it anyway. And that is, do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

48:23 Stephen Holgate: Yes, the Dale Carnegie. And I mean, as sort of cheesy as it is, I guess that is. Actually the accurate answer. The reality is I joined the company because I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. And that's, you know, while that's not a sales-specific book, it's very salesperson-friendly. I joined because I, you know, everything was saying in that book resonated with me. And then from joining 17 years ago, it was like, yeah, well, this is the Dale Carnegie methodology on how to sell. So I've been influenced by that probably at a subconscious level of just saying, yes, well, of course that's how one should sell. But I think it just fits in with my natural personality. So if I was to say what the sales philosophy is that I follow, I would say it's be a relationship builder and a problem solver. There's a book that seems to be fairly well known amongst salespeople called The Challenger Sale. It's all about, yeah, you know, to really set yourself apart, challenge people, challenge your prospects and your clients. And it's like, yeah, cool. Do that. But if you haven't built the relationship first, you're really running a difficult risk there. So to be seen as somebody who's likable, trustworthy, respected, credible… so there's that relationship-building aspect of trust… and then to allow us to be challenging them, asking probing questions, learning what their problems are, to be able to solve their problems. So that's my overall overall philosophy.

49:49 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So how would you then describe sort of your style within that approach?

49:54 Stephen Holgate: Hopefully it's… well, actually, the main one, hopefully just authentic would be my main one that I hope people always see from me. But conversational, playful, not taking things too seriously. And what I mean by that, obviously taking what I do and what I stand for and the products we deliver seriously, but everything else, it's fun. I think I think fundamentally it comes from me to believe that I'm in a position that I'm very fortunate to be in. Coming back to this whole, hey, I'm just an Aussie kid who was hanging out in New York City having some fun and my career seems to have gone alright. So it's this mindset or style overall that is one of just like being easy with situations, easy with people. Not that sales is easy, but an easy element to the personality or to the conversation or to how the relationship is building.

50:43 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So when it comes to motivation, what motivates you? How do you think about motivation in general?

50:53 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, this is an interesting one. So for what motivates me personally, I genuinely wish this wasn't the reality for me, but I've learned this about myself and I know that it is. So other people on your podcast might relate to this. The genuine thing that motivates me is a fear of failure or a fear of letting people down. Like, I wish I was motivated by positive, inspiring, uplifting things, but I know the reality for me is if I start… if I say I'm going to do something, sales or snowboarding or whatever it is, it's a fear of not being good at it that drives me to learn more, do more, have conversations with people so that, so that I don't screw it up. And related to that fear of failure is the fear of letting people down. Like, you know, it sort of relates a little bit to your question earlier around if I'm not a morning person, how do I get things going? How do I make sure I'm, I'm doing things? I'm motivated by a fear of letting people down. Like, maybe this is not the best analogy, but I'll use it because it's the truth. Even in preparing for this podcast, The questions, you know, you send some questions ahead of time. My driving force is, well, let's make sure I don't mess this up. I need to put some preparation in to make sure I don't make a fool of myself when I'm answering questions. And I do that for new business meetings, for client conversations, for training sessions, where it's a case of whether you call it pride or whatever it is, but wanting to not let people down, wanting to avoid things going poorly. That is actually the thing that makes me go, all right, wake up a little bit earlier, stay awake a little bit later at night, just do that little bit extra so that it goes well.

52:37 Scott Ingram: That's fascinating. I mean, one of the things that comes up a lot in this is that the top performers seem to be more self-aware than most, but that is, I imagine that's a lot more common than we think. And you've just sort of called it out. Because that's… I'm fascinated. I actually, I want to think more about that because that's a really, really interesting, probably more common than we think callout.

53:03 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, that's interesting. Maybe. And this is where I'm fortunate that, well, 2 things. One, my father is a professor of psychology back in Australia. So I'd grown up with that. And 2, I think in also training other people in sales, as well as being a salesperson myself, I've had to be a little bit more self-reflective and self-analytical. I never want to deliver a training program that seems like trite or like the rudimentary, hey, this is what it's supposed to be. It's like, no, no, what is it really? What are the real challenges, the real issues, the real stuff that gets in our way? So I probably question myself and analyze myself perhaps more than average.

53:45 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. Well, then I'm super excited to hear what you might have to say. I'm always I'm always really intrigued by the responses that come from this couple of questions. And the first is, is there something you believe that the average sales rep would think is crazy?

54:01 Stephen Holgate: This might be a cultural thing as well. Yeah, mine is that I believe that taking 6 weeks vacation per year is completely normal, which here in the US doesn't seem to be something that's completely normal. So, I balance this by the fact that, yeah, if I'm on vacation, I might still be checking my emails for half an hour every day. Responding to the urgent ones and that sort of thing. But this philosophy… and forgive me for being like the, you know, non-raised American commenting on this… but in other countries, yeah, 4 or 5 or 6 weeks vacation per year is very normal. And over here, it seems that 2 or 3 weeks is normal. It's like, no, guys, we need to rest and recharge and rebuild ourselves so we've got the energy to tackle the other challenges that come up. So I'm all about having this, this level of stepping away from our day-to-day and doing some things outside of work, you know, 50 weeks a year.

54:54 Scott Ingram: Man, that is, that is so timely and funny. I just recorded a short clip for Daily Sales Tips this morning. So folks that are, that are listening to this now, I think it was 91 maybe. And, you know, I'm coming off of I described it as sort of a macro and a micro issue, right? So I didn't get a vacay. I usually do 3 vacations a year, right? I do spring break, I do a summer trip, and I'll do something over kind of the Christmas holiday. And the world conspired against me to the point where I don't think I'm going to get a vacation for the first half of this year. And then I've just had this nutso, nutso travel schedule, and I was really, reflecting on exactly what you just said of the rest and recovery. And I'm fried right now. I'm like, I have to figure out a way to build in some recovery in shorter doses, knowing that I'm not going to get that time. And, you know, I've done a better job in recent years where I've figured out how to do maybe 4 weeks of vacation. But man, 6 weeks is aspirational. And again, Roger Bannister type of example, right? Oh, so you're telling me I can take 6 weeks off and still perform at peak levels and be one of the best in the world, right?

56:11 Stephen Holgate: Right. And I'll go so far as to say that I don't know that if you put… and I hope this is okay to say it like this, but I don't know if you put an American working 50 hours a week up against an Australian or a British or European or whomever working 48 hours… sorry, 48 weeks per year, I'm not sure that I could have an accurate statistical balance that shows me that the person who worked 50 weeks a year actually achieved more than the one who worked 48 weeks a year. Year because I believe that those extra 2 weeks off are part of what allows people to recharge. Whether it's 48 or 46 or whatever it is, it's almost like saying, well, if I only sleep 2 hours per night, in theory I could be working 22 hours per day. It's like, yeah, but you're not going to be energized and motivated and on form for those 22 hours a day. Sleep is necessary each night so that you can have a productive day tomorrow. Vacations are necessary so that we can have productive months and quarters.

57:08 Scott Ingram: Yeah, such, such great stuff. So what about the flip side? Is there something that the average sales rep believes that you think is crazy?

57:16 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, it's a shame actually, because I still think there's a lot of sales reps that believe that sales is just about talking a good game and getting one over on your clients. I think I know some people can make sales that way. I know there's some industries that lend themselves to that sort of thing. I just haven't seen the really super successful people across different industries do it that way. What I mean is there's this image from The Wolf of Wall Street or Boiler Room where it's like, okay, if you're a really cool, tough sales guy, you can convince them in things and you can get one over them and that's what makes you a hotshot. It's like, man, Man, that's terrible. I know it makes for a great movie, and it's fun, and it's all that sort of stuff. As I said, maybe some industries, some people can do well with that mentality, but I think it's a real shame that that's the projection of what sales is. The people who are really good at sales are the ones who, again, build relationships. They're authentic. They ask questions, understand the client's problems, put solutions that actually meet the client's problems. They, you know, they find the clients that they actually can help, and they're like, it's salesperson as problem solver rather than salesperson as convincer, talk a good game, you know, win over the client.

58:35 Scott Ingram: I love that. I think that's really… it certainly just aligns with, with my philosophy, right? I, I think I've seen consistently that, that exactly what you described is the real sales success. And, and the challenge is It's not sexy. It's not Hollywood-worthy, right? So you're competing against these perceptions of what sales success is when the reality is a much kinder, gentler, more valuable service.

59:06 Stephen Holgate: Right. Absolutely.

59:08 Scott Ingram: So we've kind of touched on this a bit, but maybe you've got more because I know you did a lot of prep around this. What have been the most important decisions you've made or lessons you've had to learn to get where you are today?

59:21 Stephen Holgate: In terms of important decisions, the travel aspect for me, you know, living in different cities in different countries and also just travel as a tourist, as a visitor, or travel for business meetings as well. I think decisions around having new experiences, doing something different, putting yourself in unfamiliar territory, that's really helped me. And even though that's not like, you know, an obvious natural, oh, okay, say travel to a different country, do well in sales, there's not an obvious correlation there. But it's like, I think it's helped me be able to relate to different people, to empathize with different situations, to bring experience from different areas in. So yeah, some of the most important and best decisions that I've made are just like have different experiences, be in different places, do something different so we're not stuck in our In terms of lessons I've had to learn to get where I am today, there's a few different ones. Certainly lessons in terms of self-management. I say self-management rather than time management. I know time management is the normal sort of buzzword, but I mean, you can't really manage time. We just get the amount of time that we get. So it's about how do we manage ourselves in the time that we have available to us. So I've had to get really good at self-management to the extent of things like, yeah, I work from home rather than going into the office because because I know I can get more work done and be more productive here when I do that. So that level of organization. I've had to learn to say no and to push back. It's almost this burnout thing that you were just talking about where if we just keep on saying yes to everything, we're going to build ourselves a trap. There was a time where every client I had, for me showing up as the salesperson, they might have been very complimentary and they've said, oh, Stephen, will it be you delivering the training? And maybe it was a little stroke to my ego. It's like, oh, well, yes, I mean, if you're particularly requesting me, of course I'll deliver the training myself. Where I've had to get better at pushing back and just saying, hey, look, I'm one of the trainers. There's also another dozen trainers who would be perfect for your company. I'm going to recommend Graham goes in instead of me. So pushing back and saying no to some aspects I think has been a really difficult thing for me, but now that I've been doing it better and better, it's been a wonderful thing for me. And finally, just the lessons I've had to learn in just valuing myself, valuing my time, and that shows up in prices charged for projects. I mean, fundamentally, I'm selling an intangible product. It's a training program. It's very hard to touch it, feel it, experience it before taking it. So I need to remind myself, especially when it was me selling myself as a trainer not to back away from being able to take a stand of, yeah, this is how much this solution will cost for your company. If you want to go ahead with this solution, awesome, great. This is what we'll do, and this is the price. That's how it is. Or if that pricing is not right for you, cool, no worries. You're not the right company for us to work with. I'll go find a company that is right for us to partner with. And I never said that bluntly or hopefully not rudely, but just that mentality of the products I'm selling, the training solution I'm selling is worth what I'm charging. And it's cool if a company doesn't want to pay that, but that means they're not the right company for us.

1:02:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I think that that is so important, right? And especially when you think about just the bigger impact on the business, like margins matter, right? It's not get the deal at any cost. It's recognizing, look, there There is value, and I talk a lot about like margins matter. We need the business to be profitable in order to serve our customers. We don't want to be… nobody does good things on razor-thin margins. So, I love that you mentioned that and talk about just holding that line. And, you know, sometimes it's just not right, and sometimes you just have to walk away and find somebody who is right. So, what advice would you give to somebody who's just starting out in their sales career Sure.

1:03:31 Stephen Holgate: Maybe there's a theme of some of my recommendations, but it'd very much be advice around be a consultant, be a problem solver, ask more questions. I would just say to them that the quicker they can develop the skill of asking useful, interesting, good, value-adding questions, the quicker everything else will fall into place. I think the mistake that a number of companies make is in their own internal sales training It's all about, here's the product, this is the unique selling propositions of our product, here's the demo, here's the PowerPoint deck that you need to present to them. It's like, yeah, cool, they need that knowledge, but before any of that product dump comes, how about we get people really good at building relationships, asking questions, doing that? So I'd say if you're a salesperson who's not in a company that provides that level of information. Buy some books, do your own personal learning on how you can get skilled at asking questions and showing up as a consultant.

1:04:36 Scott Ingram: Yeah, great, great stuff. There's a really good webinar coming up too. They should check that out.

1:04:40 Stephen Holgate: Well, you know what, as I was answering, I went, oh no, this sounds like I'm actually trying to give a plug, and that's not. It was actually just my genuine response to what I think people should do. So I was like, no, I'm going to hold back on On saying anything more.

1:04:54 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So there's an implied message underlying all of this that part of what has made Stephen great is he's been exposed to a whole lot of Dale Carnegie training. So, but I'm really, really interested in your answer to this because I ask it of most people, but it sounds like you really did this. So the way I typically ask the question is just what advice you would give to somebody who's a little further into their career, right? And they're doing okay, but there's another level of success. You know, what would you say to them? And for you though, maybe what I'll say is, what would you have told yourself 5 or 6 years ago when you had that inflection point and really, you know, took your game to another level?

1:05:37 Stephen Holgate: What I would have told myself is, brace yourself, buddy. Things are going to get tough. But yeah, okay, I guess expanding on that a little bit more. I mean, yeah, with great sales results comes a whole lot of work. Once, at least in our company, once the sale's made, my job doesn't stop. So there is a case of having to learn to say no, having to push back, having to do all of that sort of stuff. So a lot of fun that comes with that, a lot of positive outcome and the income and all that, but there's… yeah, it's also hard work along the way. The more general question of just advice for somebody more successful in sales, yeah, to me it comes from who we are as humans and our natural nature. Is once we get sort of good enough at something, it's very easy to rest on our laurels or just to tick over. It's like, I'm good enough to just hit my quota. I'm good enough to just do this and tick over. So I'd say for more experienced salespeople, it's a question of how can you reinvigorate? How can you refresh? Like when your company might say, hey, we've got this once-annual conference on… it's our sales get-together. Rather than groaning and saying, oh man, it's 2 days away from my family and that's going to be annoying and it's going to be the same old thing as last year. Rather than going in with that sort of mentality of, I've already done sales for 10 years, I already got this. Maybe it's just having that little mindset of saying, okay, cool. How am I going to force myself to learn something from this conference? How am I going to force myself to actually refresh and reinvigorate. Or maybe if you're somebody who doesn't normally read sales books, go buy a sales book and read it and force yourself to actually apply something from the book. So I guess summarizing all of that, it's that whole theme of experience something different and be willing to adapt because of it. I think the danger is just sticking to our habits, not evolving, and just doing it the same way because 10 years ago our mentor at the time suggested it was a really good way of doing something.

1:07:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah, awesome. So I know you've been listening to the show for the last number of months, so I'm really interested to know what would you want to know beyond what I typically ask, right? What would you want to know from the top sellers in other companies?

1:07:59 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, for me it's about this other theme that I came back to, that mentality and attitude and sort of being the sort of person who sells rather than just doing the tactics of selling. So what I want to know from other people is how do they be the sort of person who maintains their energy quarter after quarter, year after year in sales? How do they bounce back from challenging times? I know that's to some extent one of the questions that you already asked, but how do they be the sort of person who can persevere and get through the difficult times. And then just, it's for me, because I'm in this constant battle… is too strong a word… this constant tussle of how do I balance my workload? Like, how do I refocus and reprioritize? I'm doing some new business development, a lot of account management, some execution of what I sell, delivery of what I sell. So any advice from other people around just when they're in that multiple role, how do they balance Yeah, that's, that's a great question, right?

1:09:07 Scott Ingram: Because I think that, I mean, especially if you work in a startup where, you know, everybody wears a lot of hats and it's not just this pure sales role that you have, or you're in some type of a hybrid role, maybe you're partially leading a team, partially carrying a quota. You know, I think it's a question that a lot of us have. What is it for you? I mean, how have you kind of managed through some of those challenges? Those competing priorities?

1:09:31 Stephen Holgate: That's why I want other people to tell me, because I haven't figured it out yet. How have I managed through it? So again, a little bit of what I was saying before, just like my, my, my hardcore focus on having my calendar weeks out, couple of months out, my to-do list, so that I'm looking at that, becoming better at saying no to things and pushing back on meetings that I don't need to be in or delegating training to other people. Actually, what I've done to manage my workload, I've been pushing back on senior leadership within Dale Carnegie to say, I'd actually like more resources. We've already got a team of people in client service support, and they do some of the project work behind what I sell. I'm like, actually, we need another person for how I'm growing, for how our New York office is growing. I think part of a good salesperson's responsibility, part of my own responsibility, is also to be, in the most positive way, demanding of our directors and senior leaders to say, actually, look, here's the resources I need. Make this X-dollar investment, whether it's in a staff member, in some other resources, and here's the return that I believe I'll get you on that investment. I believe that freeing up 10 hours a week of my time by hiring this additional resource will actually help me generate another $200K in revenue. Well, that should be some easy math. It's only going to cost me this amount of money for an extra part-time resource, but it's going to produce this much more revenue. Yeah, that's better than a stock market return investment, so let's do that. I do think it's part of our responsibility as salespeople, contributors, to be able to have tough conversations with senior leadership to let them know where we need the extra help so that we can focus our time on revenue-producing things.

1:11:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's a great callout. And it's not like they're not going to appreciate that. They crave it. I think one of the biggest challenges a lot of executives have is just not getting enough of that from-the-ground input and feedback and suggestions, right? They don't have all the answers. And if you've got a great idea and a great solution, I promise they want to hear it.

1:11:41 Stephen Holgate: Yeah, good. I'll remind them of that. I'll say Scott said so.

1:11:44 Scott Ingram: You can just have them listen to this. It'll be okay. So Stephen, is there anything that we didn't cover that you were hoping to talk about, or a question that I didn't ask that I should be? Anything left unsaid?

1:12:00 Stephen Holgate: No, not particularly. I would hope that the theme that's run through this, for whatever it's worth, is that balance of the mindset and attitude, the hope that, you know, it's not just enough to use processes and tactics and frameworks with clients. It's about, you know, am I being the sort of person I need to be to really connect and help clients? And that theme of, I guess, continued learning or being willing to try new things, try different things. As I said, I'm very lucky that my closest friends also work for Carnegie. My wife is also in sales. She's the executive vice president of her marketing agency. So when I have selling challenges or prospect calls, I'll often bounce ideas around with her or with my friends to say, how would you approach this? What questions would you ask in this situation? So all I can say is just to encourage people to do more of that as well.

1:12:56 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. Well, let's make it actionable. So the first action I hope you'll take is to… I'm not kidding… register for the webinar that we're putting together. We're going to do some additional prep for that. And I'm really excited about what's going to come out of that. I'm doing a bunch of research and going back through a lot of different interviews and things to pull out some of these core principles. So, again, top1.fm/dale to get registered for that. And then, Stephen, we always try and sort of create an actionable challenge for the person listening to this that they can do over the course of the next 1 or 2 weeks here. What would you have them do to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:13:35 Stephen Holgate: Sure, I'll say 2 things. One is take the next 7 days to look at the upcoming prospect calls, client calls you have, and whatever set of questions you normally ask. My guess is you've probably got a list of go-to questions that you ask when you're on these client calls, prospect calls. Just add 2 more questions per meeting. Just what are some other additional questions that might probe a little bit further, challenge the client a little bit more, uncover something that you wouldn't normally ask? Just rather than just doing what we've always done, done, probe with a couple of extra questions and just see if there's extra information that surprises you for each of those calls. And then the second one comes from an experience I had literally yesterday where I was brainstorming for a prospect call that I had actually literally an hour before this podcast started with a consultancy in the aviation industry, not a particular sector I have experience in. So I went to a couple of my colleagues and I said, hey guys, how would you handle this? What would you do. So I would say to everybody listening to the podcast is to find time with another salesperson who you trust. Maybe they work for your company, maybe they're a friend, maybe they're somebody else, and just have a one-to-one brainstorming session with them. Learn from one another. Because I think what happens is with our friends or our colleagues, we might have casual conversations around the water cooler or just catching up. And, you know, did you see the game last night? I mean, cool, I do that. But just, I think sometimes we forget to say that the person that we might be sitting next to or working with actually handles sales a different way than we do. And so maybe just deliberately carving out a 1-hour meeting just to compare strategies, compare notes, compare approaches, and see if you might learn something from, from the person who you work with day to day.

1:15:14 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. I love both of those ideas except for the ask 2 more questions thing right now because it's, it's already long. Stephen, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for taking this much time with me and sharing so much wisdom with this beautiful audience. Can't you, can't you tell that they're, they're above-average looking people?

1:15:34 Stephen Holgate: Unquestionably. Absolutely.

1:15:36 Scott Ingram: And then come back and join us soon on another podcast. And hopefully we'll actually talk with you on that webinar as well. We'd love to, a good opportunity to interact with us live. We're gonna, we're gonna try and make that so that it is participatory and you can ask us additional questions. So if you had a question for Steve, Stephen, that you wanted to ask or requested for me. Come join us and we will talk to you then. Thanks for listening.

1:15:59 Scott Ingram: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.