37: Dayna Leaman, Senior Account Manager at Wiley - Building a Sales Career Combining Passion and Talent

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest is Dayna Leaman. Senior Account Manager at Wiley Publishing. Welcome to the show, Dayna.

0:33 Dayna Leaman: Hello, thank you for having me.

0:34 Scott Ingram: My pleasure. And a special shout out here to Nicole Dingley, who was kind enough to make the introduction. Thanks, Nicole. So, Dayna, let's start like we always do with the top 3 things that you believe have contributed most to your sales success there at Wiley.

0:50 Dayna Leaman: Absolutely. So, for me, over the years that I've done this job, and these 3 things, Scott, came out of mentoring and training new reps, and I see them as more characteristics of new people that start or just the characteristics of someone in this industry who is successful. So the first one for me, and I think this is so true in our industry right now and for many different companies, is being comfortable with the uncomfortable. And that could be, you know, with a sales situation, with talking with someone and with your entire industry in general. And we can talk more about that later as well. And then being intellectually curious, and that is something that is either you have naturally. I've always been a very curious person and like to learn. There are times in many of my conversations that I'm not overly interested in what they're telling me, but I can feign that, and I'm careful to use the word fake now in our world, but this could be a little at times if you're having a bad day. You have to kind of fake it to make it with some of that. But for the most part, that you're an intellectually curious individual. And then lastly, and this can sometimes be faked as well, but passion. Passion and energy go hand in hand. And for me, I have a passion for learning. I was a former teacher, so this makes a huge difference. But having passion for your job and how you do it, and this can mean many different things, but some days you do have to fake your passion for your customer.

2:39 Scott Ingram: But hopefully not every day.

2:40 Dayna Leaman: No, no, no, not every day for sure. In fact, most days, I mean, you know, I find myself, if I can really get in the zone, I'm truly interested in what they have to tell me and that I listen because it makes such a difference of how I counsel them.

2:56 Scott Ingram: Well, and you said that this came from mentoring. How did that come about through mentoring? Is it something you learned about yourself just in talking through it, or it's what you saw in others who were successful? How did that come about?

3:08 Dayna Leaman: You know, both. When I started at Wiley, I looked at people who I wanted to be like or emulate in some fashion. I'm really good at looking at… I'd like to take a piece from him on this, pieces from her on this, and sort of blend and marry those together to do the things that I think that will not only fit well for me and be successful. And constantly, new account managers were asking me, what are the things? What are the things? You know, everybody's always looking for, you know, easy things, or just the top 3 things of how I see success. And I think these are more characteristics of what are needed to be successful for this type of sales job.

3:58 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's fantastic. So, let's talk about what is this type of sales job? Talk about your role and how you got to number 1 there.

4:07 Dayna Leaman: Sure. So I was working at the time. I was a high school teacher for years, loved education. But needless to say, especially in the New Orleans area, did not get paid well. I worked at an all-girls Catholic school. It was my passion, my heart. But I knew that at some point I had to move out of my parents' home and I had to figure out a way. How am I going to get paid for something I love? I then left there to work for a finance company. Which wasn't my heart. So I started looking, found the Wiley job, and Wiley's motto at the time was helping teachers teach and students learn. And that spoke to me on an incredible level because then I could combine my love for education with selling, which I knew I was good at, as I have about 15 to 17 years of retail experience because I started working at 14. So I feel like those blended well together for me and Honestly, I did not meet success when I first started this job. It's very complicated because it's not a B2B sale. It truly is… you're knocking on the doors talking to professors, deans, provosts. Sometimes if you're lucky, you can meet higher-ups at the different colleges and universities. But for the most part, you're truly knocking on doors. They expect you to come, but they don't always like you to come visit them or sell to them. And it's a very unique situation because you're also dealing with the bookstores, you're dealing with online, And our industry is going through radical amounts of change right now. And then, in the end, you never sell to the ultimate customer, which is the student. So it's a very unique, complicated, fun, and crazy sort of sale. And I think I figured out all the steps. It took me, I think, about 2 years to really figure it out and be successful.

5:59 Scott Ingram: And what is it exactly that you're selling, and what kind of a territory are you selling that into?

6:05 Dayna Leaman: Absolutely. So, I'm based right outside… I actually live right outside of the New Orleans area. Recently, we now have more ground to cover, but generally, I have 15 schools, 2 of which are community colleges. Wiley is extremely strong in STEM, which is science, technology, engineering, and math. We're also very strong in business, mainly accounting titles. Ironically, as an English major, I did not do well in any of these subjects, but it just goes to show you, you don't have to have mastery of the content. So basically what I'm helping professors do is find technology solutions, learning solutions, and a plan to help them teach successfully. Now in the world of education, if you don't have a technology pathway for students, they expect it. That is something that they come… you know, there was a recent ACT survey that almost 78% of students starting college expect their instructor to use some sort of technology in their classroom. So this is standard, and that's what I really concentrate on, and then combined with Wiley publishes content to match with their technology.

7:27 Scott Ingram: Excellent. And now quantify your results for us.

7:31 Dayna Leaman: Sure, sure. So, I've been at Wiley 16 years. It'll be 17 years this April 30th. It's very strange. I'll never forget the day because it was the first day of the fiscal year, which was nice because I had a new budget. But I have grown my territory. At the time when I took it over, it was about a $2 million territory. It's now in the $4.7 million range. I have the largest field territory at Wiley. I believe I've looked it up. There's only been about maybe 4 years, maybe 5, that I had not made my number in this almost 17-year trek. I've been in the top 5 of sales several years, and believe it or not, I was only Rep of the Year once. But I think that my strength has been constant, consistent achievement. So, you know, so far how we qualify things is I've made my number 4 out of 5 years so far. And that's sort of being comfortable with the uncomfortable. It's very hard to make your number in this year after year.

8:41 Scott Ingram: Well, and again, it's so interesting that this is almost exactly the same story as my conversation with Trey Simonton. And you wouldn't know that yet because as we speak, that episode will go live tomorrow. But we're…

8:55 Dayna Leaman: oh, great.

8:56 Scott Ingram: We're well ahead of that. So folks listening to this will be already familiar with, with that episode and a really similar story, right? A very, very heavy mentoring type of approach. And it was his leadership, just, just like Nicole calling you out, that said, this is the number one guy, even though he wasn't the quote unquote number one last year.

9:16 Dayna Leaman: Right.

9:17 Scott Ingram: It's that consistency over time that the business and sales leadership, they value that, right? You don't have to be the number one to be number one in the eyes of your leadership.

9:29 Dayna Leaman: No, absolutely. And, you know, I remember listening to your sort of preamble that, you know, it's not just the flash in the pan. I find that many times people who hit number 1 and never made it before, they may not make their number ever or for several years. So I think consistency sometimes isn't always valued as it should be, for sure.

9:52 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, I certainly do. I, you know, I'm not interested in… I don't know that there's a lot to learn from those who have won the sales lottery. Right? I got lucky. I walked into a mega deal and I'm… I haven't been able to do it again. That's not relevant. That's not helpful other than maybe you can tell us how the heck you got in that position in the first place.

10:11 Dayna Leaman: Right, exactly. I totally agree.

10:13 Scott Ingram: Well, and you had also shared that, I mean, just the performance of your territory is sometimes more significant than multiple states.

10:22 Dayna Leaman: Yes, absolutely. Because I cover 4 different states now and each one of those, you know, has unique you know, differences. Some are similar and some are not. I mean, it's, it's really, you know, when I start talking about it, it's really a complicated job in many ways.

10:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. So let's go back a little bit to… you started to tease at it, kind of your origin story. So it sounds like your very first introduction to sales was in the retail space. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

10:56 Dayna Leaman: Oh, absolutely. Let me tell you, I have an unbelievable respect for anyone who has ever worked in the retail space. And that could mean waiting on tables. It could mean, you know, working. So, for example, my first job was at The Limited, and I can remember I was too young to actually… they wouldn't let me sell. And I was in the back taking, you know, how, you know, like the clothes will come in a box and I was supposed to hang them on a hanger. And I wanted to sell so badly that I said, if you give me a shot, Just tonight. It was like a Friday night. And I said, I can sell this stuff. And I outsold everyone who had been there for years at 14 years old. So it was awesome. It was great. And I knew I felt so comfortable doing it. And what I really love about retail, it prepares you for being uncomfortable. It prepares you to make very instant decisions, but that they have to be based in always putting the customer first, but also protecting your company. And sometimes those can be hard to juggle.

12:04 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. So talk through the rest of that. What other work did you do in retail? How did you end up a teacher? You know what?

12:12 Dayna Leaman: Right.

12:13 Scott Ingram: All play out. Yeah.

12:14 Dayna Leaman: Yeah, it was crazy. You know, I always… my dad for me is a big mentor. He was always in marketing and sales, and he actually taught a sales course in New Orleans. And I, I took the Dale Carnegie sales course. I was just interested in sales always. And retail for me was a great way so I could balance school and work because I could always work on the weekends. And at 16, I was actually recruited by this woman who I still know at The Gap. And so I worked for The Gap for several years, worked my way up there, and then left for college and continued to work, and I was recruited again to work for Nine West, where I… that's the shoe store. All women know Nine West. And this was before online was big, so people really had to shop for everything that they had. And, you know, I had fantastic customers. Selling shoes was great because it was one of the few clothing purchases that you got commission on, and I did extremely well. I was in management there and paid for college, and it took me, it took me until I worked for Wiley to make as much money as I did in college. But I just, I really felt like I had to do something in the education space, and I think a lot of people who, a lot of students who are in college, they think sales is a secondary job. Well, if it doesn't work out, I can always be in sales, and that's sort of a shame because it really is such an incredible profession, and I think it doesn't always get the respect that it deserves in a college field.

13:58 Scott Ingram: Well, and that transitions perfectly. I always like to follow up kind of this origin story with, if you were starting over today, is there anything that you would have done differently from a career perspective?

14:10 Dayna Leaman: Yes, yes, I would. I think I would have, because, you know, like I said, I was an English major. I was a really good writer. I think I would have taken more classes, whether it's in management or marketing or sales, and frankly zoned in on people that I wanted to mentor and leaders that I appreciated. I don't think I did that enough. I don't think I sought out… I think because being in that retail space for so long, I don't think I sought out what other industries where you can make a career and a very successful one at sales. So I wish I would have gotten into more professional sales much sooner than I did. For sure.

14:53 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And how would you… how would you do that? I mean, if somebody were in that same position, they're listening to this, they're in retail sales, they want to move into a more professional type of sales direction. What would you suggest they do?

15:07 Dayna Leaman: You know, I think that the first thing what I would do is think about what you love. And I, you know, even people… I always forge relationships with people where I shop, and I've seen incredible talent in the retail space, whether that's at like Banana Republic, Starbucks. I mean, incredible. And I urge these people to really look at what is it that they love, that they like, and begin to contact those companies. So if it is clothing, where maybe it's on a different space, maybe it's being something for Ralph Lauren or, you know, you know, things that you like, if it's things, and translating that. And I actually wish I would have hired a career coach. I think that was something that was not really big when I was looking. But looking at, you know, whether it's reading something or connecting with someone that can help you figure out how to put your talents into something different that you would be interested in.

16:10 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. And a recommendation that I'll make, one of my… well, I have many favorites, but one of my favorite interviews was with Jacquelyn Nicholson, and she does some of that work. So, she goes into a lot of that coaching versus mentoring, but she does some of that coaching work. And actually, I know a couple of listeners that have engaged with her to help with those kinds of things and advance their careers. So, if you're looking for an outlet there, that's a place that you may want to explore. So, Dayna, the Sales Success Story, I mean, this podcast is really about the story that is you, but I realized a while back that we haven't been getting into any specific sales stories. So I'm wondering if you have a favorite sales story, whether you won or lost, and what you learned from that.

17:03 Dayna Leaman: Oh yeah, I have a really good one. Um, and this ironically was later on in my career, about 3 and a half years ago. I really take it personally as a challenge when someone puts me off, is ignoring me. So, and we get this in our field a great deal. It is very hard to find the customer. I mean, you know, the true customer is the student, but the person who makes the decision is the professor. This was with Tulane University, and I was desperate to connect with this woman because I knew she controlled the financial accounting course. It was big. I knew everything I could about her. I even sat in on one of her classes. She was a fantastic teacher. And finally, I just hunted her down, and I told her, what is it going to take for us to partner? Partner together. I like you. I like how you teach, and I see you as a part of Wiley. And that just stopped her. She was like, well, she said, what? Well, let me tell you what it's going to take. I would need someone to convert my current assignments from this system to your system. I mean, she listed almost impossible things, and I said yes to every single one of them.

18:18 Scott Ingram: I love that. And, and I'm sure the end of that story is they've been an amazing customer for many years since.

18:23 Dayna Leaman: Yes. Yes, absolutely. In fact, I just recently, just last week, was there. I always go talk to her first day of classes, talk about the system. We have partnered together. She's created things for us. I think she's going to be a potential author with us for content. And she really… and she told me this recently, she said, I never would have done the things in my classroom if you wouldn't have pushed me to. So I think that's the beauty of the story is that The more I've gotten through my career, I find myself challenging more, which I am a fan of Matt Dixon's The Challenger Sale. I think it is imperative that in a safe way, not in a crazy way, but that we, we intellectually challenge our customers to want more and do more. And I love that. Yeah, I think that's what I've done for her. So That's beautiful. It was just a great story because I tried for years to get the business and I got it.

19:23 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So this is, this is fantastic. I mean, and you have been at this for years and seen a lot of success. I'm, I'm really curious to know from an accomplishment perspective, what are you most proud of?

19:35 Dayna Leaman: Honestly, I am most proud of helping others without a question. I love the kill of the sale. I love getting a sale. I get you know, still, even after this many years, I get very excited. And that is a close, you know, a close first to helping new people. So, just recently in early December, we were at our meeting and every new person who walked on that stage and did well, I mentored, I had conversations with, I either talked them off the ledge or I celebrated their successes with them. And to me, out of anything I've done at Wiley, that is what I'm the most proud of. For sure.

20:16 Scott Ingram: That's awesome. And, and actually, it was, it was heading into that meeting, I happened to be on the same flight with Nicole, and we were catching up at baggage claim, which is a rare event for me. I happen to be on the road for a very long time, so I actually had checked a bag, and she was here in Austin, and it was for, uh, for your sales kickoff.

20:34 Dayna Leaman: So, that's right.

20:35 Scott Ingram: I want to ask a question that I typically ask, but in your case, I want to ask it 2 different ways. So, I typically want to understand the biggest challenge that you face, but I'm also interested in the biggest challenge that you see across those that you mentor and if those are different.

20:52 Dayna Leaman: Oh, you know, I'm going to start with the second. The biggest challenge I see among those I speak with and mentor, and it's interesting, sometimes they're not always the new people, but I do find the new people gravitate. The biggest challenge I see is them wanting instant gratification. I think that whether we call them millennials or Generation Z or whatever is happening now, I really think… and that's not a bad thing. I think sometimes we always talk about, oh, millennials want so much so fast. There's good to that. And I think that companies need to really work hard to figure out how they can capture that excitement and keep young people engaged and happy and keep them there. But I find that it's the understanding of the sales cycle of how publishing works and that everything that you do will be a step forward to really grow a true sales relationship. And so I think it's patience and understanding of the industry. That's the greatest challenge for them, for sure.

22:02 Scott Ingram: Well, that's, that's fascinating because I think that, again, I've had a couple of interviews here with folks who have been in their territories for quite some time, right? I look at Ryan Alvord, who, you know, has been at Paychex for 10 years in the same territory. I look at Trey Simonton. I look at yourself, and I look at where I am in my current role and kind of going into year 3. And, you know, I just read an article recently that was talking about the real value an investment in a sales professional really starts to pay off at about that 3-year mark, right? You're really starting to hit your stride and really starting to make a big difference and put up some really significant numbers. So, I think that patience and that time in territory… I mean, one of my… I think a lot of other things have sort of come about, but one of my hypotheses going into this podcast and one of the things that I had seen of the most successful salespeople that I had interacted with at that point was The styles were all over the place. But the one thing that was consistent is they had typically been in the same industry, ideally with the same company, ideally in the same territory, and just benefited from all of those relationships, all of that depth of knowledge. And yes, and you get introductions and you get referrals and references and all those things that can be really hard when you first start out.

23:31 Dayna Leaman: Yes. Yes. And I think if somebody can just be patient, literally for that span of time and then, you know, I think what you said is so true. You reap the benefits because I've also been able to help other account managers in other territories get business because I've signed authors, I've signed people who are engaged in our technology, who are power users. Nicole Dingley and I work a lot together with customer success. So that's how, to me, it's such a benefit because I feel like even though I work for Wiley, I feel like I work with Wiley because I've created my own business. And I think that's the beauty. Sometimes And new people don't understand that. Just hang on because this will be yours. It won't just be Wiley's. It'll be yours to have and to hold and to really take care of.

24:20 Scott Ingram: And at what point, I mean, how, how do you temper that patience? Where do you set the bar to say you've got to wait it out till X to really start to feel and understand that?

24:30 Dayna Leaman: Yeah, you know, I think everybody has been given a different territory situation. When I stepped into my territory 16 years ago, the guy was extremely successful, but he lacked passion and intellectual curiosity. And so, he had gotten these wins, but then he didn't really connect with the customer. So, I had to almost, in many cases, start over. So, that took some time, but I was smart enough to understand, okay, this is a different kind of sale, and I was definitely patient with that. But new people starting, that's why it's so important to be strategic and understand your territory and work closely with your manager, because then you can realistically set the goals of success and say, you know, is this something that I'm willing to hang on to, or I want to be successful 2 years so I can go on to the next thing at Wiley, whether that's, you know, being in a higher place in sales leadership or being in marketing or management or editorial, whatever that is.

25:34 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So coming back to you, what, what is your biggest challenge?

25:39 Dayna Leaman: I think my biggest challenge is is understanding that ironically, going back to the comfortable is that sometimes I feel I've been… people always ask me, why aren't you doing something else? And it's sometimes just listening to your own internal voice is sometimes my biggest challenge. You know, you're so good. Why aren't you? You know, we've had a lot of change at Wiley recently. A lot of the new folks about why are you still doing this? You should be leading people. I said, I am leading people, but I'm doing it without a title. And that's been to let myself be okay with the fact that I've been in this job for a long time, but that I do it very differently than other people. And for many personal reasons over the years, I've decided to stay in this position that long. I've done other things, but this, to me, being an account manager, is the best job here at Wiley. So that's probably my greatest challenge. And secondly to that, our Our field is rapidly changing, this whole dimension of higher education, and it could go in so many places. And knowing that you just sort of hang on, because in my opinion, Wiley does what we do the best. We don't do everything great. And so, it's sort of standing behind knowing that our intention is good and just be willing to hang on for the ride. No matter where it goes.

27:06 Scott Ingram: Well, and I love the intentionality of that because I actually think of what I do very, very similarly. I look at it as leading from the field, right? So, certainly, there have been opportunities to move into sales management and sales leadership, but for a variety of reasons, I feel like I can have a more significant impact…

27:29 Dayna Leaman: Oh, absolutely.

27:29 Scott Ingram: … in an individual contributor role, but that doesn't preclude me from being able to help the rest of the team achieve higher results and contribute to what marketing is doing and contribute to what product is doing and all these other things.

27:43 Dayna Leaman: Scott, I'm so glad you said that because for a short time I was in management and I did it for about 9 months and it was awful. It just was not for me. I think it was a complicated situation anyway, honestly, but I felt like I had lost all my power. It sounds strange. I felt like I had lost connections. I didn't feel like I was in front of people enough. And I think we're doing better to try to address how that doesn't happen, but it's amazing how much influence I have in the position I have, and I would not trade that for anything, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

28:24 Scott Ingram: And it's a funny story. I literally just recruited my own boss. So, you know, I, I've got a friend. This will be the 3rd company that we've worked at together. I've actually never worked directly for him, but it was just the perfect fit given his background and where he was. And, and I knew we'd work well together. And so I thought, you know, why leave this to chance? Let me, let me stack the deck here and put just the right guy, uh, in, in that role where it's going to benefit me, it's going to benefit the organization, and I can keep doing the things I'm doing. That's awesome. Awesome. Yeah. So, let's take a turn here and dig into just routines and habits and things of that nature. And I've learned to always start this sequence with just an understanding of whether you consider yourself to be a morning person or more of a night owl.

29:12 Dayna Leaman: You know, I used to be a super morning person because I was a teacher and, you know, I would leave the house at 6:00 AM. I progressively am not so much of a morning person. I really hit my stride from noon on. I, especially in this job, you have to do emails. So it's almost like having 2 jobs in a day. So I generally try to hit campus at, you know, could be anywhere from 8 on. Frankly, if they tell me, Dayna, I can only meet you at 5:00 AM, I'll be there. I won't be there totally mentally perhaps, but I will be there and I will do what I need to do. So my schedule fluctuates, but I find that my time, my true energy times are all during the day. And then immediately when I come home, I try not to even bring my computer with me on campus unless I'm on the road, but I'll immediately go back to my hotel room. And when I'm on the road, I work more and I hunker down. And immediately, I think that has been the secret to my success, is immediately getting back with people. So I really turn it on from like 5 to 8, big time, because people are so impressed that I got back with them. It's very fluid in my head. I'm still very passionate about it, so I get it out. And some days may not be like that. If I have, you know, personal things going on or anything like that, I will, you know, definitely stop something. I don't work as much as I used to work. I'll be honest with you on that. I, you know, I still work every Sunday. I think it's a necessary thing in this job to get your week right. But I've learned, I think, over the years, and now I've mastered it in a way that I don't have to work quite as much. On weekends.

30:58 Scott Ingram: Well, and I think that's the benefit that, that comes with the time and territory and things like that. So talk about what are you doing in that 5 to 8 p.m. window? Mm-hmm.

31:08 Dayna Leaman: So basically when I'm out on campus, instead of taking so many copious notes, I've learned over the years that really listening and figuring out what is the… what are the action items I need to do to get this business, to close this, to get them closer to yes. And so, I think that as soon as you can jump on any excitement, or frankly, any fear, or any lack of commitment on their part that I can change, I will do it. And I think a lot of sales professionals really miss out on immediate action. And so, during that time, I'm really organized because I take notes. It's almost my, like, to-do notebook. I actually still take notes on paper and a small notebook, and I also use the recording device on my iPhone. And I'll be walking across campus and just generally using like a dictation device, speaking out notes of things that I felt about how the conversation went and how I need to respond. Who do I need to get involved? What is my team for success? That's, that's my question every time I leave. What's my team of success that I need to create to close this. So in that 5 to 8 span, I'm emailing people. I might even during, you know, you know, they call it driving time, dashboard time, or windshield time. That's it. That, you know, you're driving and you're thinking, who can I call to make sure that we can capitalize on the excitement of this so we can potentially close this business?

32:46 Scott Ingram: That's, that's fascinating. And so I want to dig into a couple of other pieces. You mentioned kind of the Sunday. What does the Sunday prep look like?

32:53 Dayna Leaman: Well, the Sunday prep is, you know, sometimes I do it in the morning, sometimes I do it in the evening to make sure, because in my business people cancel on me constantly, or I'll show up somewhere and they're like, oh, I completely forgot we were meeting today. So you have to have other, you know, I call them anchor calls. You know, it's unrealistic to think, in my opinion, and there's different schools of thought on this, no pun intended, that there is, you know, that you could see 20 people in a day. I don't know what's happening. I don't know what you would say to somebody to seeing 20 people in a day. I think that's absurd. I always try to have 5 to 7 great calls in a day, and sometimes it's not that many. Some of my best, most accomplished days, I only talked to 4 people, but they were extraordinarily great calls, sometimes lasting an hour, hour and a half or more. And so, you know, to me, that's the power of planning, is that if that person doesn't show up, that you know that you have a plan always. A framework to work from. Oh, okay, so this guy didn't meet with me. I'm gonna go across campus and talk to the engineers, or always have something to do, which I think I've been very good at.

34:04 Scott Ingram: Well, and let's continue on that because I find that managing the travel days is often its own challenge. So how do you tackle a day on the road?

34:15 Dayna Leaman: So basically what I do is I take a look at, especially when you start like a semester, because that's how we work in school, semester times, is taking a look at, you know, what are the dates that that they have to make decisions by. So, for example, I have one school that makes very early decisions for fall. And what's weird about our sale, in a way, is that it's not immediate. So, I'm already working on what students are going to be using in the fall of 2018 or even beyond. You know, I'm looking at 2019 and even 2020. So, I have to figure out quickly what schools make decisions quickly. So, if their decision dates are in late February or early March, I'm going to go to those places first and plan travel accordingly to that. I have to really look at when their spring break schedules are, when they're going to be there, because this is not a typical business. It is an academic business. So, we have to really be constantly aware of where they are because the worst thing, you know, the big joke in publishing is to show up and school's closed and no one's there. So, you plan to what is best for them. Them, and just emailing people and saying… and that's what the Sundays are about, or oftentimes I'm very productive on Fridays in my office. What days are good for you? I mean, I'm very honest with people. We need to meet so that we don't have to keep on meeting. I really think I've been better at that over the years, is defining the time we have together. I want to address your concerns about this. Not just address your concerns. Concerns about what? Your concerns about something very specific. And I find the more specific I can be, the more apt they are to give me time.

36:02 Scott Ingram: And so you're, you're setting that up as sort of the agenda and the reason for the meeting? Yes, absolutely.

36:09 Dayna Leaman: And then I always end with, if you think anyone else should be involved in these conversations or you think I need to meet with anyone else, please let me know. I usually know the players, but sometimes you're wrong. And that's what's interesting about this business. And that could change. The people that you thought made the decision don't make it anymore, or they're gone, or they left, or they're leaving to go to another school, or they're getting out of academia. So, you have to cut… things constantly change. Yeah.

36:36 Scott Ingram: So, I have so many questions. Yeah. What, what does your sales cycle look like? And what, what does the close… where does that happen?

36:45 Dayna Leaman: When does the contract get signed? Yeah, absolutely. God, I wish there was a contract. So, typically right now, We are having conversations with professors about opportunities that will not materialize. In other words, whatever I'm selling them will not even be purchased till late August of fall of 2018. So, for example, if I'm calling on a physics professor, and that's generally a 2-semester course, they might be making decisions, they're already talking and meeting about what technology they want to use, do they want to change the syllabus or the course description in any way, and generally committees are formed and you have to figure out who those committees are and meeting with all of those people so that you're in the fray. There's not that many competitors in our business. It feels like there are more because the big competitor now is actually making a decision to do nothing. And that's scary, is just to keep what they do or not to use any textbooks at all, not to use any content, not to use any technology platforms. And that is really about being comfortable with this uncomfortableness, is how are we still relevant? And so, that, that can be a little scary, but that's typical. So, you know, back to your question is that, you know, We're working now so that we see the fruits of the labor in August, that you see the purchases happen.

38:21 Scott Ingram: Yeah, and just to give some context here, you know, we're having this conversation the end of January, so just to give folks some perspective there. So, when… I also want to go back to the outreach and the reasons for your setting the meeting. What works in this day and age for you in terms of getting those appointments?

38:43 Dayna Leaman: Honesty. I think, you know, pointing out to them, I see the cost of what your students are paying now. I have talked to other people that you… that your colleagues. I know the pressures of the student body right now at that particular school. I think it's really important in this kind of sale to be aware of the environment. So, for example, here in Louisiana, we have a scholarship program statewide that could end. So, I have to be extremely cognizant of price, and I bring up those things. I think having knowledge, you know, whether, you know, I read the, you know, higher education journals, just make sure that I every weekend read about what's going on with education in the news, that really hits home for them. If I can speak to how can I help them with time, How can I help them get tenure so that they're not wasting their time doing these things, that I can help their teaching load so that they have time for their families, they have time to move up, and they have time to get tenure? Those are magic words for the customers that I deal with.

40:00 Scott Ingram: And what are the channels that you're using to communicate that? Is there those phone calls or those emails?

40:05 Dayna Leaman: How does that happen? Everything. Everything. So if I've tried, I always try first through email. I find email in our industry is extremely important. And it's almost gotten like text messaging, right? So, when I first started this job, I had no cell phone. I just remember everything was paper. It was crazy. And now, I have all these awesome mediums. I am a huge user of the iPhone. I am constantly engaged and plugged in. So, now, I find people answer emails very quickly. I even text with some of my professors for sure. If I need to get in touch with someone and they're not getting in touch with me, I will… I look at the class schedule and know, okay, so-and-so is getting ready to be teaching at 11. I'm going to call them at 10:30. They will be in their office, and I'll hunt them down. And then if that doesn't work, I look at their teaching schedule and I find them in class. And it always frustrates me when someone new in this business, when a new account manager tells me, I can't find this person. This is the person I need to find. Well, that's ridiculous. Go to where they teach. You know where they are. Hunt them down. And sometimes I've gotten some looks like, golly, lady, you are… you're killing me. I mean, because I have to find them.

41:25 Scott Ingram: But that's brilliant. Very few of us have prospects where you know exactly where they're gonna be and when, and they're in a relatively public place where I'm gonna be able to get in front of them, literally.

41:36 Dayna Leaman: Yes, absolutely. And look, they may… I can't even begin to tell you how many people look at me like, I can't believe she's here again, and the look of sorrow and disappointment when I walk up. I mean, that's not most people, but you would really be surprised. And I, you know, in fact, just recently last year, I looked at this new professor and I said, if we can get this done, you won't have to see me for a while. Okay, and so I think having a sense of humor, if I could add that, as being a… and that's sort of the passion. That's… I view my sense of humor as part of the passion. And ironically, I didn't use my sense of humor probably in the first 5 to almost 7 years of me doing this job, and that's a regret. I think I could have been a lot more successful using my sense of humor early on, and now I use it. That's one of my big tools in my arsenal for sure.

42:32 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I feel like that is maybe the biggest theme of all through the course of these conversations is you, you just have to be you. So if you have a great sense of humor, like, use it. Don't hide it because we're supposed to be all buttoned up and professional all the dang time.

42:48 Dayna Leaman: That's right, that's right. And people really appreciate it. I think there's a skill to learn when to use it and when to turn it down. And I think that that comes with wisdom. A little bit of it comes with age, not always. I've seen very young people be able to use that tool very effectively.

43:10 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, speaking of tools, what other tools or apps can you not live without?

43:18 Dayna Leaman: I recently have been… there's a tool called Owler. They email me everything from my industry. I really like that a lot, that it sort of individually sends me information about whether it's Barnes Noble or different things in my universe. I really like that a lot. I've just recently started to listen to podcasts. I'm a big fan of audiobooks. I just recently got finished listening to a book about how to raise an adult. I don't have children of my own. I have 3 stepchildren, 2 of which are in college, and it was written by a dean at Stanford, and it was an amazing book because it really has a lot to do with my industry. A lot of the people I call on also either have small children or children themselves in college, and so I think really being aware of what's out there. I also look at the Lean In app a lot. I'm a part of a Lean In circle here in New Orleans. Wiley is very big into Lean In. I love Sheryl Sandberg. I recently saw her speak last year when she was in New Orleans. So keeping up, because I've always been a book person, I sometimes read online. I've gone back to paper books because I really love just writing things down in books because it's very cathartic for me. So, you know, my tools sort of range from technology to paper, really.

44:53 Scott Ingram: Well, and that's a perfect transition because I also love to ask about people's information diets. So of the podcasts and audiobooks and physical books that you're reading, what are the go-tos or on the book front, you know, maybe the most impactful couple of books that you've read in the last couple of years?

45:11 Dayna Leaman: I think for me, ironically, it's a Wiley book, so I'll make a plug. Perfect. It's called Selling with a Noble Purpose. That one really spoke to me. And I don't know if it would have spoken to me as much in my early part of the career, probably because I was a former teacher. Lisa McLeod, Lisa, yeah, I think it's McLeod. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name correctly. And Wiley actually brought her into one of our meetings. And that, I also follow her on Facebook as well. That book really spoke to me. A sales professional, because that goes into the passion piece. If you don't like what you're selling or think that you wouldn't be using it, it's hard to fake it for that long. It really is. And it is, to me, so important to know that what you're selling has a greater ethical purpose. So that book was amazing to me. I think that was one of the… you know, I really enjoyed Matthew Dixon's Challenger Sale, but the The Selling with a Noble Purpose, I think, for my industry really spoke to me the greatest. And I also got finished reading, I forgot who the author is, of Grit. You've probably heard of that book that was out. That was really great for me and starting to read more about women in leadership and empowerment, for sure.

46:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah, great stuff. So, let's continue because you just made another natural transition. You're making this very easy for me, Dayna. Okay. So, we've talked about Challenger, you talked about selling with noble purpose. Is there a sales philosophy that you subscribe to?

46:57 Dayna Leaman: Yeah, I think that the philosophy is, if it's not good for them, it's horrible for me. It really is. But I've also learned, you know, I was really thinking about this yesterday and thinking about our conversation together. I have people who are not immensely… I don't think anybody's ever 100% happy with anything. Thing, but people who I know would not leave Wiley because of me. That's the philosophy, is the connection. I think there is times when people would love to see us improve something, whether it's in our content, whether it's in our technology, but they make a decision at some point to say, I'm sticking with you because, A, I know that this will get better and that Dayna will challenge me to think in a different way, and she's going to make it, she's going to make it happen. So, if there's a point, and sometimes that's happened, where people have had to leave me, and I say, we'll be back together at some point. We will be back. And ironically, I start a lot of my presentations with saying, you shouldn't take business personally. I take business very personally. I do. Not in that personal way that, oh, I'm going to be upset or angry with you, but I take it on personally that ethically, I'm going to do the best job for you that I can, because you're doing something very important. You are educating the, the next leaders, the next doctors or nurses or accountants, people who make very important decisions for people. So I take that on very personally.

48:38 Scott Ingram: Well, I know you just paid for a brand new microphone, but I feel like you should just drop it right now.

48:43 Dayna Leaman: That's awesome. I'm really liking this microphone. I'm going to keep it. There you go.

48:49 Scott Ingram: Well, so, Dayna, and I don't know if this changes the answer or if this provides just a different color on that statement, but I also like to ask how you would describe your style in that approach.

48:59 Dayna Leaman: Yeah, I think my style is one of being very inquisitive and listening. Ironically, a lot of people discover later, wow, you're really witty and funny, which is… that's a characteristic that a lot of people have told me my whole life, which is great. But that I had someone recently tell me, do you know how nice it is to not talk to a cheerleader? I don't know what that meant. I said, that's great, that I really wanted to get to the root of what they need and what they want and, and, and how we can fit in there. So I think my style is one of listening and also discovering the issues they never tell you. You know, it's sort of like in a marriage. Well, what's wrong, honey? You're not yourself. Oh, it's nothing. I'm fine. I'm just aggravated with this. There's always something else. And we know this. There's always something else. And it's my job to learn, maybe, you know, maybe it's something with them personally that isn't going well. Maybe they're facing challenges in the department and there's going to be some sort of leadership change. Maybe it's financial crisis for the school. Those are all burdens on how they teach students, and I think it's my job to incorporate those into my solution for them.

50:24 Scott Ingram: It's funny. I think I really get the you're not a cheerleader comment. And it's that difference between… it's the difference between passion and… and this is going to maybe get taken out of context, but positivity, right? I think there's this fake it till you make it. I'm just a giant cheeseball and all is great with the world. That is so freaking annoying. It is. But to have passion and to care about something, people don't… that is not irritating?

50:56 Dayna Leaman: No, because what's interesting is no one has ever said… and for the record, I think anyone who's ever been a cheerleader is awesome. I was not. I was always the funny, witty commentator on the side, and I was the mascot for my high school. So, I completely appreciate cheering, and I think it's important because we often don't do it enough in companies. However, with your customers, is for somebody to say, Dayna, you have energy when I don't have energy. And that is really important. And a lot of people tell me that, God, you have a lot of energy, which is weird because when they say that to me, I'm often very tired. It's just my personality that comes out through that and my willingness to do the best job for them that I can.

51:42 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Great stuff. Well, again, man, this is the easiest interview I've ever had. Wow. Yay! Because at this point… Do I win something? You know, we'll talk about that in a minute. You know, at this point, I like to kind of understand the root of your motivation. So what is it that motivates you, or how do you motivate yourself?

52:04 Dayna Leaman: You know, I think what motivates me is knowing that I had a hand in their success, and whether it's, you know, whether it's, you know, this might sound goofy, but a few years ago, and it really hit me, it was very emotional because I can be a very emotional person at the right minute, I was at a local community college in New Orleans, Delgado. It's a great place with a lot of great teachers. And I have a big piece of business there in anatomy and physiology, and it's what students need to go on to determine whether or not they're going to be nurses or in the allied health field. And I saw these students sitting on the floor of the hallway looking at my book, pulling up WileyPLUS, which is our technology platform, and engaging so much in this content in a happy way, not in an angry, I can't believe I have to do this way, but using our resources because I know that they're going to have great potential. And that was really materialized. And I'll share this link with you. We did a video of a student. Her name is Jonte Ray, and she's absolutely amazing. And she is getting ready to graduate from nursing school. And we've really had a close connection. She used all my materials. She did a lot of videos for us in Wiley Plus. That has been the pinnacle moment for me. I was involved in making that video, and I know that what we did has changed her life. She was a single mom. She's going to nursing school. She is going to be a great medical professional. And, you know, we have that… that is my motivation. Is to help anyone that I can, along with my colleagues, that they understand that what we do has such an incredible noble purpose.

54:00 Scott Ingram: So, I'm just pondering on something. So, your title is account manager. How much of your business is repeat business versus new business that you're gathering?

54:13 Dayna Leaman: That is an excellent question, and the powers that be in my company, I'm sure, would always want me to get more business. I will be honest with I think that the majority of what I do, it's almost harder to keep what you have than get new market share. It's really hard. If I can get, Scott, literally, I always look at things as big business and small business. I never look at anything like, oh, that's small potatoes. No. But big pieces of business where you have a few hundred students, every single semester buying something from you. That's what you want. That's what you could, you know, go for. You know, those are battles. Those are sometimes often wars that you have to get. You know, if I can get 2 or 3 of those a year, that's an accomplishment along with smaller individual choice adoptions where somebody might be teaching something and have 30 to 40 students a semester. You have to gather all of those stones. You know, you can't just pick up the big ones and think that you're going to get all the wins. So that's, you know, and that's, that, that, that, that really takes some time. But I think most of what I do, and I enjoy it, is constantly keeping my current customers engaged. In fact, this is how I quoted it to someone, to a new account manager. There's a song out by John Legend and Meghan Trainor called I'm Gonna Love You Like I'm Gonna lose you. And that is how you have to treat your customer base, even the ones you've had for years. You've got to love them like they could leave you tomorrow. And that's… that fear, in a way, has always kept me very real and always challenging my current customers to feel like it's a new relationship with me, in a way.

56:07 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Well, and what I'm sort of connecting the dots on, and maybe it's just speaking to me because it's a lot of what drives my own motivation, right? But being connected to the results and the success of your clients. And I wonder if that lends itself better to those of us who are, who are driven that way, being in more of an account management type of position. Because I, I mean, I've done all kinds, right? But I… it's one thing to bring on a new account and sell them something one time and then, yes, you know, sort of paint this vision, but then sort of hand it off to somebody else to deliver and, and not really have any association with them beyond that. I mean, granted, you typically do and you're reaching back out and kind of following up, but by and large, you're not. And I really like the opportunity that I'm in now where, you know, I work with 15 very, very large… I think they're nearly all Fortune 500 enterprise accounts. And I get to see the result over time. You know, the conversations that we're having now in the year are when we're getting together at the end of the year, when we're getting together in November and December and we're having drinks and we're celebrating. What are we celebrating together? And helping them get to that point. And a lot of times, and also getting very, very personal about that. I was just on site with a client in Madison last week and was asking them late into the evening, just understand understanding their compensation and how do you get paid? How do you make money? What are, you know, how are you measured? What's the next step for you? Where are you trying to get? You know, the more you can understand and impact those things, to me, is incredibly rewarding. And when you do all of that stuff, the dollars come. Absolutely.

58:04 Dayna Leaman: And you know what's funny? And you asked me this earlier on when we started about contracts. Well, our business really isn't contractual. I mean, it's kind of crazy how hard we work, but I do create my own, you know, and I call it a service contract. It's a partnership. And one of the big things of the partnership is at the end of this is that we're going to monitor and gauge how is this going, that it's not just, okay, you know, you're going to use this and the students use it and, you know, we have a monotony of success. This is great, but where do we grow How do we… is it the success that you wanted? And if not, how do we get there? Is that really doing after the semester is that we take a good look. Where are you? And in doing that for years, I think I've been very good at doing that and getting other team members from Wiley involved, whether it's an editorial thing, a technology thing. They know that my willingness to gather all the right people to make their success the number one thing is great. And in fact, I had somebody at one of my schools tell me, and maybe Nicole shared this with you, we just had a lot of change in the last year and a half, and we had to… every account manager had to take on an immense more responsibility. I have to travel a lot more. And one of my long-term customers, she just looked at me and she said, just go out there and get other business. We're fine. Whatever we can do to help you to get more business at other places, we will do. I mean, that's, that to me is like the ultimate, is that they're saying, we're fine, we're going to help you gain new market share other places and let them know what you've done for us. That, that's fantastic.

59:51 Scott Ingram: And, you know, again, that's that. It's the time and territory. It's the investment in those relationships. That's right. That amount of success that, yeah, when your customers are willing to help you go sell, that's really, really meaningful. And there were a number of things that you said there. I won't belabor the point, but we'll certainly put a link to it. My favorite article on business networking of all time is a Harvard Business Review article called Better Sales Networks, and I'll just put a link to it in, in the show notes for this episode. So if you go to top1.fm and look that up, folks can kind of connect with that because I think it speaks to so many of, of these things and has a much broader view of what it means means, uh, to, to network from a, from a sales perspective. So, Dana, switching gears a little bit again, I, I love to know if there's something you believe that the average sales professional at Wiley would think is crazy, or the average sales professional anywhere.

1:00:53 Dayna Leaman: Something that I do or something that I believe? Yes. Oh, they would probably be very surprised that I feel like that my customers could walk. I think that a lot of the people I work with think, oh, Dayna knows that she has this down. I think they would be surprised at how nervous I get. I think nervousness is huge in sales. Huge. I'm still sometimes, you know, for example, we're getting ready to launch a, you know, a new version of our platform in Wiley Plus. I'm nervous. And I think nerves says a lot. It says that you care, you know, it says that, you know, that this matters, that you want to make sure that everything goes right. So a degree of nervousness is good. And I think that a lot of my colleagues would be surprised at how nervous I still get and that I look at that as an actual plus.

1:01:50 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, it sounds like it's just sort of healthy paranoia that keeps you on your toes.

1:01:53 Dayna Leaman: Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And it, you know, and then, you know, you You can't let it totally persuade you or invade your space of success, but it definitely is a driver for me. I think they'd also be surprised at how connected and how fast I get in touch with customers. I think on an average, I get 2 or 3 emails, I can't believe how quickly you got back to me, because I've had people tell me, you don't have the best stuff in this particular area, but they don't have you. And, and that's huge. Yeah. So what about the flip side?

1:02:29 Scott Ingram: Is there something that the average seller believes that you think is crazy?

1:02:34 Dayna Leaman: I think they would be surprised almost in the same thing, how sometimes how nervous I get. I think they would. I think they get surprised. I make it sound like sometimes we have more people working on things than we do. Sometimes I feel like we're Oz, like behind the curtain. You know, I think that they would be surprised at that level, that same thing that sometimes that I fear, that they could leave or that something would happen. I think they'd also be surprised at how much I work and that they often… many of my customers, for example, in engineering, they think I have an engineering background or they think I have a science background. And so, I think they're surprised, and I'm getting better about sharing that with them. No, actually, I call on all these disciplines. So, I think they would be surprised that, oh my God, you know, this is… I can't believe she covers all of this stuff.

1:03:35 Scott Ingram: So, as you look back at the trajectory of your success, what have been the most important decisions you've made or lessons you've had to learn to get where you are? Are today?

1:03:48 Dayna Leaman: Oh, I think I've had to learn how to be patient. I think I've learned, honestly, one of the biggest lessons, and I'll share this with you, is to really like yourself and like who you are. I think when I started at Wiley, I wasn't sold on me, and I had to figure out what that profile of what I was going to be like as a salesperson. Ironically, I didn't think I would be good at this. And at the end of my first year, I was actually going to quit. And I've had amazing leaders and mentors at Wiley, a lot of women who have been great examples of leaders and mentors and friends for me. I can't say enough about Wiley and people, that as awesome as Wiley is as a company, I think they're even better as people. And so, that's the biggest lesson, is to really like who I am, and that early on, when I started Wiley, early on, like You know, I guess about 5 years later, my husband was diagnosed with cancer, and I went through that with Wiley. He was diagnosed and then died 3 years later. How I was able to perform professionally and successfully was… is a testament to me, but a testament to Wiley as well. So that was the greatest lesson, is to trust myself and know that what I was doing would make a huge difference. Difference. And so that's those, those personal lessons and the things that your company can do for you, that you can have that symbiotic relationship, is really vital.

1:05:26 Scott Ingram: Wow, that's, that's really big. And yeah, it also speaks to… I've been kind of reading more and more on the, the sales Reddit and looking at a lot of the questions there, and people often are asking about, you know, am I in the wrong spot, or, you know, this is happening to me, am I job. And, you know, I think you have to be aware of who you're working for and whether or not they're the right partner. And do they actually… do they actually care about you? And it sounds like that's just the ultimate proof point there in that you've got a great partner in who you work with there at Wiley.

1:06:02 Dayna Leaman: Yes. And understanding there was a time that I felt like it was all them. They were the great ones. And, you know, there was this woman who used to be at Wiley, Bonnie Lieberman. She's amazing. And she told me, you've been just as good or better to us. And she actually had a lot to do with the reason that I've stayed in this position. She said, you've earned all this, relish in it and grow from it. And that was when I really realized I am doing… I'm definitely in the right position for sure. Yeah.

1:06:39 Scott Ingram: Well, and what I'm absolutely hearing is is you're selling yourself, right? You're the differentiator. It's not the Wiley solutions, while they're great. It's really, it's Dayna that is the value. Yes, yes.

1:06:57 Dayna Leaman: And, you know, it's funny that you say that. I had somebody tell me a few years ago when I said, so, what does the short stack look like? And in our industry, that's who are the people that you're considering for this business, right? And they said, well, we're looking at Pearson, we're looking at McGraw, and we're looking at you. We're, you know, we're looking at Dayna. It's like, wow, yeah, I wasn't aware I had my own publishing company. But that, that speaks volumes. And it's not just because they were speaking to me that this was sent around in emails that they didn't even use Wiley. They just said me. Wow. And that, that's huge.

1:07:33 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. All right, so that's, that's a good kind of pivot point. I want to hear… I… this kind of the soapbox portion where you get to just dispense of advice to those listening. And I like to break it into 2 pieces, starting with the advice that you would give to someone that's just starting out in sales today. Wow.

1:07:52 Dayna Leaman: I would first tell them to be patient, to be extremely hungry. And really a big one that I think a lot of people forget about, Scott, is to be humble and to really look at other people, not just where they work, but other people that they know, whether it's in a sales job or something else, about how they gained their success, and to talk to those people and walk right up to them. That was one of the things I did early on when I started Wiley, is I found out who were the leaders and the drivers of sales success in our company, and I walked right up to them, and I just said… and one of them is Mary Jo Mackesy. She's absolutely amazing. She's been with Wiley a long time. I said, I want to be around you. I want to know what you do, and I want to know how you do it. And she was kind enough for many occasions that we've had great conversations, and we're personal friends to this day. But to seek those people out, even if it's uncomfortable for you. Not all great salespeople… I'm very extroverted. There's a lot of great salespeople who are introverted. And I think recognizing that you can have all different facets of your personality, and actually, if your personality is different than someone else's, that you You can still learn a great deal. You know, another woman that had been doing this a long time was very introverted, and I learned so much from her about how to be patient, how to be a good listener, and how to give back in many ways. So I think it's paying attention, asking a lot of questions, and sometimes feeling very uncomfortable, I think, is what I would tell these people, and to give yourself room. You know, failing at sales is hard to do if you don't try. Even our job is so hard that even sometimes I find that mediocrity can be somebody else's best, but that I never settle for any mediocrity at all. And I think taking it on personally for a young person who's starting off in sales is just vital, is really making it, you know, a part of their soul. For sure.

1:10:10 Scott Ingram: Dayna, I think all of that is, is so spot on and speaks so well to exactly why I'm so passionate about bringing together the Sales Success Summit here in Austin this May. Yeah, I've very intentionally not promoted this at the beginning of episodes. I'm probably doing myself a disservice, but really probably not. Because the folks I want to come to this event are those that are the most committed, that are the most engaged and really want to take their results to the next level and, and make themselves uncomfortable, whether that's… it's uncomfortable because Austin is far away or it's uncomfortable because it's expensive. You know, whatever that thing is that makes you uncomfortable, I think that's all the more reason to be a part of this. And I feel like the quality of the people that are in the audience. It's not just what we put on the stage and what we put together from a program perspective. It's also just the entire dynamic and everybody that's a part of this thing. So again, in May on the 7th and 8th, we very intentionally did that in the middle of a quarter at the beginning of a month to make it less of an impact for you in your own kind of selling efforts. And self… well, not selfishly. Selfishly, if I put myself in the shoes of somebody who doesn't live in Austin, that Monday and Tuesday thing allows you to come out on Friday or Saturday and spend some time in Austin and see why this city is so great, particularly in May before it gets to be 200 degrees. Yes. So true. Yeah. So if my city's the same. Exactly. Exactly. New Orleans. Totally. So if you go to top1summit.com, all of the details are there. I was just telling Dana Um, who, and she's going to be there. She's, uh, she stepped up and committed and it's going to be a part of this thing. I've intentionally left a giant chunk of the program empty. We've got a good part of it built out and you can get a feel for what that is. Uh, but as folks are registering and we're sort of asking what they're looking for, uh, to take away from this, and that'll help us build out the rest of, uh, the summit. So maybe you want to hear something specific from Dayna. You want to hear her dig deeper and you can provide that feedback and we'll put her on the stage. And so again, if you've got a topic top1summit.com. Use the referral code SSS for Sales Success Stories. That'll get you a $150 discount right off the bat. And we would love to see you here in Austin. I just, I thought this was the perfect place to talk about that, given the advice that Dayna's been sharing here. So, Dayna, let's, let's continue that, that thread. I also like to ask about the advice that you would have for somebody that's a little further into their career. They've been patient. They're more established. And they're either struggling or they've done well, but not… or they're good, but they're not great, right? They haven't gotten to that next level. What do you suggest that they do to break through and get to that next level?

1:13:24 Dayna Leaman: I think, in some ways, if they haven't realized it, I'm a little worried. It depends on how long they've been there. If they want to break through and be great, I think they really need to start looking at this question: Is it a job for you, or is this your career? And I think that's a huge question. I decided a long time ago that sales was going to be my career. I think there's too many people that stay in jobs for too long and say, it's my job. Not that the word job has such a, you know, bad reference, but I think for some people, it's just a thing that they have, that they make money, and that they provide for their families, or do what they need to do in life. So I think they need to ask themselves if this really is your path, and it's a career and you want to stick with it, I would suggest for those people to read more, get more active, maybe join some sort of leadership circle, maybe read more, connect with people who have that success, and ironically, even connect with people outside of their industry. I think too long so many people just take on, well, I talked to so-and-so and they've been doing this for so long. But to talk to somebody that might be selling a service instead of a product or vice versa, something different that you can gain ideas. And then secondly, they may need to ask themselves, Scott, should I be doing this anymore here? What is it that you think has stopped you from being great and meeting that success? Because maybe you're not getting to these drivers and maybe you just don't want to be there anymore. And that's, that's a hard question, you know, for people to ask themselves and to hear themselves answer that question.

1:15:10 Scott Ingram: Well, I think that's so spot on. The rule that I've always set for myself and the way I think about it is if you don't love what you do, it's work and work sucks. So, you know, it's, it's finding that passion and sales. There are so many different things in sales, right? So, just finding the right alignment of is this a company or a solution that I'm passionate about or an industry that I'm passionate about? And then even with inside that company, there are so many different roles, right? Maybe you want to work in account management. Maybe you want to work in business development. Maybe you want to do new logo sales. Maybe you want to manage a team. I mean, there's, there's so many different ways that you can kind of take your skill set and what you're passionate about and find that right fit. There's, there's too much opportunity out there to really settle.

1:16:01 Dayna Leaman: Agree. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1:16:04 Scott Ingram: What would you want to know about top sellers in other organizations?

1:16:10 Dayna Leaman: I would want to know how they view it with new lens, like how, or fresh eyes, so to speak. Are, what do they do? What do they read? Or who do they talk to? Or how do they, because sometimes, you know, I say to myself, God, I've been doing this for so long. Am I tired? Am I doing this in the right way? Am I doing it in a more modern way? That's what I'd like to know is that those people who have that pinnacle of success? Because I've listened to some of your podcasts, and that, for me, for a person doing this for so long and being successful, is the juicy part. What do they continue to do? How have they challenged themselves to give themselves a little fear or a little scare of, hey, I need to accomplish this, I need to learn this, and I'm sort of scared doing it, but I'm willing to?

1:17:04 Scott Ingram: It's exciting. And, and what, what is that for you?

1:17:07 Dayna Leaman: I think for me is being better at probably demoing technology, that being comfortable at doing a few things. I have the connection with the people down so much, and just being uber prepared, which I'm good at doing. There's so many times I've done technology presentations and the internet has gone down, and it's like, wow, you kind of need the internet, and I've been… I'm always very good at selling off of PowerPoints. It sounds strange because my connection with people is so good that I can have them buy into what I'm telling them even if something's not working technology-wise. But I would like to get better at doing 4 things at once well instead of 2, if that's possible.

1:18:01 Scott Ingram: Well, and it reminds me, you know, speaking about that diversity and just getting input from people in, in other industries and other roles, and certainly something we try and do here. Something that is on my radar for, uh, for the person listening to this, if you know an absolutely killer solutions consultant where that's, that's their role, right? Defining number one in that space is a little bit tricky. Um, and that's why I struggle with that because that's, you know, that's, that's kind of the benchmark and the bar that we have here, but would love to talk to just an amazing solutions consultant that that is their world. And I'm sure there's a lot that we could learn for those of us who do, do our own demos and things like that. So if you have one of those, you can just send me an email. Send that to scott@top1.fm or email me for whatever other reason you want to. That's, that's often the best way to reach me. So, Dayna, who is the most successful salesperson that you know personally?

1:19:00 Dayna Leaman: Probably I'm going to say 2 people. One is my current manager. She's getting ready to go into another role. Her name's Katherine Murray. She's absolutely amazing. She's a great… in my opinion, she's like the utter grace of professionalism. And then second, that woman that I mentioned, Mary Jo Mackesy, she continues to amaze me with what she's willing to learn. She's been doing this, I think, far longer than I have. Maybe she's been at Wiley 20 years, I don't know. The risks that she's willing to to take and to get involved in things that oftentimes she may not know anything about is just unbelievably extraordinary to me. I think on a personal customer relationship, Nicole Dingley, who you met, she has an incredible gift of being positive and using words that really hit at the right minute and getting down to customers' needs. She's a fantastic salesperson. Person too.

1:20:03 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, speaking of Nicole, she told me that you have one of the best personal brands she's ever seen. Why do you think she said that?

1:20:13 Dayna Leaman: I think, you know, I laughed when you first told me that. I'm like, why is that? It's sort of like I've learned something, and this is not to sound braggadocious, but I know that I have a lot of sway at Wiley in terms of, hey, let's ask Dayna this. You know, it was like that old, you know, commercial for Life cereal. Let's, you know, let's have Mikey try it. They'll do it. I've always been the, sure, I'll try it. Let's do something different. Let me get feedback. I think because I'm… I say yes a lot. I'm getting better at saying no to some things, but I say yes to people a lot. You know, hey, Dayna, can you talk to me about this? Can you help me with this? Yes, yes, yes, because I love to do it. I think because I'm willing to do crazy things in front of people. I'm a little extroverted. I am a little quick and witty. So I think that's established myself as somebody, I guess, who has a personal strong brand. That was so nice of her to say. I think treating people with respect. It sounds crazy to say, I don't think people give of themselves enough. I know a lot of great salespeople, that are lone wolves, so to speak, and operate on their own and don't share. I think that's a crime. There is so much to share and to give to other people, and I find the more I give, the better I am at sales without a question because the more confident I am. So, so good.

1:21:52 Scott Ingram: And again, that's just the emergence of… it feels like the most consistent top performers that I have talked to are those that give the most. And it's that giving, it just, it comes back so much more. You know, in talking with Trey, you know, he talked about some of his own benefits of all the mentoring he does. And he said, you know, it serves as another form of accountability. I can't mentor somebody, give them all this advice, and then go home that night and go, ooh, you know what? I'm not working as hard as I need to on keeping my own pipeline strong.

1:22:26 Dayna Leaman: That is so true. When I hear these new people and they talk about what they've done, I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna… what am I not doing? And I love that. I love to get challenged with new… and it's not even just about young, you know, people have been doing this for a while. It's not about age. It's just about an inspiration, an idea, some energy that they have that I didn't tap into. And I'm like, what? I've got to make sure that I do that. Because if, if people come to me, you know, it's sort of that thing of if you're going to talk the talk, you have got to walk the walk. And you've… that really inspires me at the end of the year. Like, am I going to make my number? Because a lot of people are counting on me, not just me, but for me to be successful and continue to mentor and to help others, I have to be successful. Yeah.

1:23:17 Scott Ingram: Any other thoughts that we haven't already talked about on the mentoring and mentorship standpoint?

1:23:23 Dayna Leaman: I think, believe it or not, realizing that if you don't have a connection with someone… I had to recently tell someone, you know, I think you might be able to connect better with so-and-so, and realizing that you cannot be everything everyone is, you know, it's just not possible. I've always been told my whole life, Dayna, everybody likes you. Who doesn't like you? You know, but sometimes you won't connect with someone and that, you know, in your years of doing something or the connections that you have is realizing that someone else might be a better help to someone than I would be.

1:24:03 Scott Ingram: Love that. Yeah, it just goes back to that, that awareness and knowing where your value is and how you can help. And, you know, sometimes else can help more.

1:24:12 Dayna Leaman: Right, because, you know, I've, you know, there's sometimes I've had to tap myself on the shoulder. You're not as good as you think you are, and you need to take a step back and let somebody else do this. And sometimes you even have to tell people who are above you, look, you need to get somebody else. Because what I've learned in sales, there's a lot of envy too, is that, you know, people, people can get sick of success. I know it sounds crazy. I've learned to get over it, about how some people react to me about things. And then I just turn that and make sure that I'm constantly listening to somebody else who is successful. Yeah.

1:24:52 Scott Ingram: Well, and speaking of somebody else who's successful, who are your mentors? I mean, how do you treat that for yourself?

1:24:59 Dayna Leaman: Yeah. I mean, my, my current manager, Catherine, is definitely a mentor to me. People who have even left Wiley, a lot of people in editorial have done a lot for me at Wiley. You know, names I can mention, my friend Lori Rosatone, Petra Rector, people who have just taken the time to really work with me and see something in me, and that means a great deal. And, you know, and believe it or not, you know, people that I don't even know. I wish I could meet Sheryl Sandberg. I love her. I love a lot of what she has to say and her thoughts that, you know, I think sometimes to take a risk, you know, to get to know people. We recently have a new CEO, somebody else that's, you know, higher up, and I immediately email them and say, hey, I want to get to know you because they affect my universe. And so I think it's always looking for how other people can inspire you. And I work with a lot of great people, and I couldn't do what I do without any of them, for sure.

1:26:14 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, and I think that you, you made a really good point there in Cheryl and some others, in that you don't necessarily have to have this one-on-one conversation with somebody to benefit, right? You could read their book. And Elaine, a lot of times the way I think about this show is mentoring at scale. Yes. Right. You and I get to have this conversation one time. This is a big chunk of time that you probably can't give up over and over and over again. But no, thousands of people are still going to be able to benefit because we had this conversation once. Absolutely.

1:26:49 Dayna Leaman: And, you know, something else I would like to mention is when you've gained that kind of success, I just recently got involved with the high school that I went to outside of the New Orleans area, and they put me on their advisory board, and we're in the midst of a strategic 5-year plan. That has been huge to me. I think when you reach a point in your job where you can take your skills, take the respect, that personal brand that I have at Wiley, that personal brand exists outside of your work universe. And I think if you can find ways to give that back in other parts of your community, my big thing right now is women empowerment and leadership for young girls, probably a lot to do with the fact that I was a former high school teacher. And if I can do that, I've seen myself do it at Wiley, and I want to do that on a broader scale in my community as well. Beautiful.

1:27:42 Scott Ingram: Well, this, this is where we get to try and tie a big bow on, on all of this. So incredible conversation. Now, I want to see if we can make this actionable. So we release new episodes every 2 weeks. So I would ask, if you were to create a 14-day challenge for the person listening to this, what would you have do to improve themselves and improve their sales results?

1:28:05 Dayna Leaman: Absolutely. Get outside of their comfort zone. I would, whether it's figuring out who they might emulate, whether it's going to the bookstore and looking at different books, but I would say for 14 days, and I'm not exaggerating, is keep a small journal with them, or they can use their notes on their phone. You know, there's that Notes app on the iPhone. Phone is to ask questions to their customers that at one point may have made them feel extremely uncomfortable and really practicing that. Practice it in the mirror. Practice it when they're driving. It's how that comes out of your mouth and how that sounds like to you. Practice it with your partner, with your husband, your wife, whoever, your friends. I think it's great to have a few drinks on a Friday night and say, how does this sound? Does this sound too much is that, you know, if you're not getting somewhere and you need to accomplish something, sometimes I'm really surprised of something that was so simple that I didn't do and that I got through to a customer. But you have to write these things down, whether it's typing it up in an email, even to yourself, recording it on your phone. So I would say for 14 days, talk through a difficult conversation, questions you don't normally ask that may have made you feel uncomfortable. And figure out how can that be comfortable for the customer.

1:29:35 Scott Ingram: Dana, this has been so great. Thank you so much for all of your time. I can't wait to see you and meet you.

1:29:40 Dayna Leaman: Yes, I'm excited.

1:29:41 Scott Ingram: In May, that will be a blast. For those of you who are ready to commit and ready to come join us, go to top1summit.com. Don't forget to use the referral code SSS and save yourself some money. And we will be back in 2 weeks with another great interview. You. Thanks again, Dayna. Thank you.

1:29:59 Dayna Leaman: It was great. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast.

1:30:04 Scott Ingram: To be sure you never miss an episode and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.