154: Tim Zielinski - From Individual Contributor to Effective Sales Leader

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram.

0:24 Scott Ingram: Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, I'm bending the rules just a little bit, or Ordinarily, I only interview number one and top 1% individual contributors, but Tim Zielinski came to me with an interesting proposition as a former number one individual contributor and now the leader of the top performing team at Dynatrace. I thought that might be pretty relevant for the sales leaders and aspiring sales leaders who listen. So welcome to the show, Tim.

0:49 Tim Zielinski: Thanks, Scott. I'm honored and flattered to be on.

0:52 Scott Ingram: Awesome. So before we dig into your backstory and the lessons learned from transitioning from selling to leading and all of that, let's start with some immediate value. We always do and talk about the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your success in sales.

1:07 Tim Zielinski: Sure. I would say, I mean, number one thing that comes to mind for me is discipline. I think in sales, there are so many things we can do to be busy. But at the end of the day, being busy doesn't mean you're successful in sales. So, you got to be disciplined with your time, disciplined in the things you're doing. And sometimes, the things that we got to be disciplined with aren't the fun stuff. Like cold calling or reaching out or those kinds of things. And I see so many salespeople that are busy with their day. They're doing a lot of things and their schedule's full. They're not busy and being disciplined with the things that are important, that get them over their quota or whatever that goal might be. I think another thing is focus. It kind of goes with discipline, but it's not just being disciplined with your schedule and your time, but focusing on those most important things, whether that's client meetings or doing your prospecting. That's such a big one now is making sure you do those things like prospecting that are important because I see so many reps when they get to the end of a quarter or they're trying to close a deal and things like prospecting go out the door, but then you pay for it later if you're not putting the time in every week. And I would say, of course, the last one is just hard work, right? Everybody in sales, you have to work hard. You're really not going to get successful at anything. In my opinion, without working hard. And certainly back to those other points of discipline and focus, you gotta be working hard in the important things that are going to get you to your quota. So there's a lot more to those, but I would say the top 3 that come to mind to me are the discipline, focus, and working hard.

2:50 Scott Ingram: Love it. I'm sure that we will dig into all of those kinds of topics. Why don't we contextualize just a little bit though and talk about kind of what your role is, how that's evolved, and how you got your teams in a Sure.

3:03 Tim Zielinski: So my current role, I manage 4 different teams where there's managers managing those teams and then sales reps as part of each one. That's a new role for me. But before that, I was a regional director, which I was managing 6 individual contributor salespeople, and that was for about 3 and a half years. And then even before that, I was an individual contributor for 9 years in the field sales, outside sales. And then before that, I had done the inside sales role and even like a business development rep or telemarketing sales development rep before that.

3:36 Scott Ingram: Beautiful. And I know that, you know, the RVP role is new, you're kind of mid-year, but I was most intrigued by kind of the results that you had managing that team of 6 and kind of their performance. You wanna talk about that just a little bit?

3:49 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, sure. I mean, after being an individual contributor for so long, 9 years, of course, when you become management, the hard thing is you wanna do everything yourself because for myself at I like to be in control. I like to be the driver. So, when I became a manager, it was tough to not take over. And I'm sure I did that. Many of my salespeople that worked for me were probably like, yeah, you took over everything. And that was the tough transition because I had done it for so long as an individual contributor. Instead of me just taking over deals and taking over meetings and conversations that I was in with my reps, I had to somehow learn to enable them because at the end of the day, when you have 6 sales reps, you can't be in every meeting. You can't be in every call. And if I'm the guy, if I'm the A-player, we're just never going to be able to sell as much as we can as if I'm the one that's kind of like a player coach almost. Like, I need to be in certain meetings where I can lead and coach and show the reps how to do certain things. But also, I need to help build them up and give them confidence so they can run meetings on their own, learn on their own. It's a delicate balance, especially for a personality like mine where I like to be the one in control.

5:03 Scott Ingram: And talk about the performance of the team. What were they able to do?

5:07 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. So in our, the final year that we did together, I had 6 individual contributors. Everyone was over quota, which was a rare thing. Actually, I don't know if it had happened before at our company, but it was very fortunate. Had an awesome team. Some people were new, some people had been at the company less than a year. Some, I had some senior sellers that had been more than 10 years. So, I had a wide gamut of the 6 sellers, but yeah, at the end of the day, all 6 had made it over quota.

5:32 Scott Ingram: Nice. How did you make that transition? Because I think what I see is a lot of people, especially top performers, really struggle with that move and do exactly what you described, like, look, I got this move.

5:44 Tim Zielinski: Yeah.

5:45 Scott Ingram: You know, let me run with the ball because I can get it across the goal line. How did you make that transition to like really leading and really helping your team get better themselves?

5:55 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, it was tough. I guess I think back to a couple books that I read that were really good, and it talked about instead of being the one that like takes the ball from them and scores the touchdown, it's like you want to be the one helping and enabling them. And a lot of that is through like questions. So, you know, when a rep comes to me with a question or, hey, how do I do this? Instead of just me taking it over and running with it, It's kind of like going back to your rep and saying, okay, yeah, I can help you with that, but what do you think you should do? Or saying to the sales rep, how do you think this meeting should go? And that's such a different way to think about it because normally, you know, if a sales rep comes to me and says, hey, I need help with this, I just take it over and run with it. Because to me, that seems like a quicker, easier way to do it because I know how to do this. I'll just take it and run. But if you have 6 sellers, if I'm the guy that has to be the one to do that all the time, it's just, I'm going to stress myself out. We're not going to do as much as we can collectively with everybody working individually and me kind of helping. It's kind of stopping. And when a rep comes to me and asks for help, it's like, instead of me just saying, I'll take it over, it's like, kind of like I said, asking them questions like, well, okay, but what do you think you should do? Or how do you think it should go? And getting them to start to think about how they can own it and run it. And me kind of coaching and helping them to prepare for that meeting.

7:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah, you know, I've got this weird analogy kind of running through my head, and it's the idea of like, really, you're trying to make the transition from quarterback to coach. And I think what happens a lot of times is the transition goes from quarterback to running back or wide receiver, right? So, it goes from, okay, cool, you get the ball and then you get it to me and I'll run, versus, no, no, no, your job is to stand on the sideline and call in the plays and help the team through this effort. Yep. Does that resonate?

7:46 Tim Zielinski: I think too. Oh yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the tough thing is, you know, a sales rep will come to you and you're just like, oh, I know how to do this. Let me take it over. That seems like the fast way to do it, but it's so much more rewarding if you can get the sales rep to get to that same outcome and it's gonna take longer and it's gonna be more challenging. But if you can get to the sales rep to come to that same outcome through you coaching and questioning and helping them get there because when they score the touchdown, instead of you taking the ball from them and scoring the touchdown for them, man, they're going to be so thankful and it's going to be so gratifying to… and it was gratifying to me as the manager to say, hey, I helped them and guided them to score the touchdown, but they got the touchdown. That's such a better feeling as a manager.

8:31 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Now, how different is the RVP role for you? Because it's one thing to be managing a team of individual contributors, but now you're managing essentially a team of leaders.

8:40 Tim Zielinski: It's even another level removed from the customer is how I look at it, right? Because the individual contributors, they have the direct relationship with the customers. Then the managers have a relationship and then I'm another layer removed. So it's tough because I loved being an individual contributor. I actually never seeked out the management role. I thought I'd be an individual contributor forever, but the time just came for me. So it's hard being another level removed because now you're not just trying to enable the sales reps, but also the managers. And the team that I led and kind of took over this year, it was a big lift where I had to hire a whole management team, a lot of sales reps. So I kind of had to play all those roles at one point where in some instances I was the sales rep, sometimes the sales manager, sometimes the RVP. It's almost like you go into a meeting and you're like, okay, who's the audience in this meeting and what's my role? Am I the sales rep? Am I the manager? Am I the RVP? And you gotta You know, you got to go into meetings like that thinking, okay, what's my goal based on the role and the audience of this meeting? But it can certainly be challenging for sure.

9:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Well, I'm curious about the transition. So you said, and there are many in this community, we consider ourselves intentional individual contributors, but you said your time came, like what was it that finally kind of prompted you to make the transition?

9:53 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. So it had come up to me before where my leadership had said, would you do management? And I had always turned it down because I was doing so well as an individual contributor. And at the time, I was making more than management. And at my company, it's set up that way that if you're an individual contributor and you overachieve, you'll actually make more than managers will. So, I was at that point and I kept turning down the manager role because on paper, it never made sense to me because I was like, okay, if I become a manager, I'll make less money. I'll have less control of my calendar, and I'll be traveling more because now you got sales reps, you know, your team throwing meetings on your calendar. You're traveling, you're covering a bigger territory. So, I was traveling more around. So, it just, it didn't make sense. Why am I going to be more stressed out, traveling more, and make less money? That makes no sense to me. So, when it kind of came up, I'd say it was the 3rd or 4th time maybe to do management. I originally said no again because I'm like, I just love the money I'm making. I love the autonomy, the freedom I have as a sales rep. So, I said no, but it's funny because a few weeks later, I was joking around with some of my leadership and I said, so, who's going to be my new boss? Who's going to be the manager of the team? And I remember them saying, well, we've interviewed some people, but honestly, we don't have anybody really good. Nobody we're really pursuing. And it was weird because it was a moment where something inside of me said, Tim, you should do it. And I couldn't turn that voice off. It just kept saying to me, Tim, it's your time. You should do it. And I kept saying, yeah. It doesn't make sense. I'll make less money. I'll have less control. And it just kept coming up in my brain, that little voice. And I pursued it from there and went after it. And I'm glad I did. It's been a great experience.

11:42 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Talk about the flip side because your analysis is the same as mine. There's… I like my autonomy. I like my freedom. I like my earnings. Talk about kind of the other side and what you got out of and why you're glad you made the choice.

11:55 Tim Zielinski: I would say as an individual contributor, there's always more to learn, right? I never thought I arrived. I never thought I was the guy. I'm the master. I always thought there was more to learn, but certainly, you get to a point where you're not learning as much, right? Like, when I was in inside sales and I moved to field sales or outside sales, there was a ton to learn. Probably 80% of my day, I was just learning new things. But as I had done that field sales role for 9 years, when you get into those end years, you're not learning as much as you were when you started. I would certainly say that's a big part of what drives me is learning more and challenging myself. And that's the biggest thing about being in a management role is it was a whole new thing. So, now, when I got into management, again, my day was a lot of learning, again, a lot of learning new skills and challenges. And I guess I just felt like I was very fortunate in my career to have great mentors and leaders. And now, it was kind of my time to give back. And enable the next generation of sellers. 'Cause I had several young people on my team and it got to the point where that was more gratifying, coaching and leading them, than me achieving my own success as an individual contributor.

13:07 Scott Ingram: Nice. All right. Well, let's go all the way back to the beginning. I'd love to hear what's your origin story. How did you get into sales in the first place?

13:14 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. So when I went to college, actually my degree was in computer science. I got a bachelor's degree in computer science. Which at the time was really like writing code, writing software. So when I graduated from college, I was a web developer. I built websites for the government at the time. And then I went on to work for a couple startup companies where I actually wrote Java code, wrote software, me and the computer, which people laugh because they're like, what? How does a nerdy, techie software developer writing code, interacting with a computer How does that person become a sales rep? Which is sort of funny. But at the end of the day, what drives me is solving problems. And that's why I liked being a programmer. It was solving problems like writing code, writing applications, building things that solved issues. But then eventually I just got to the point where I got very interested in the business side of things. So, after about 2 and a half years of being a software developer, I joined a company where I got into tech support. I was the guy that when people had problems with our software, they called me and I had to help them walk through that and fix it. And then I got into a marketing role, had no training in marketing, but got into a marketing role because in that role, it was a very technical product and they felt like they needed someone technical to be in the marketing position. And then slowly from that marketing role, I got into what they called at the time online or digital marketing. Which was very much about… an example would be, let's send out an email blast and we want people to read this or click this button or sign up for this newsletter. So, what subject line do you use and how do you make the email catchy so people open it and take the action you want? Which obviously, it's great training for sales. So, I did that online marketing. And then eventually, I got into an inside sales role where I was both in a closing role but also hunting. So I was finding my own business. I was setting up meetings for field salespeople, and I did well at that. And then I think after about 3 years at an inside sales or business development role, then I got into a field sales role. So long path. I kind of joke going from a techie nerd to sales. And the biggest thing I had to learn was, you know, techies, when they talk to you, they don't look at you in the eyes. They kind of look at their shoes. Because they're afraid they're not really social people. So biggest thing I had to learn going techie to sales was stop looking at my shoes when I talk to people. I had to look them in the eyes.

15:49 Scott Ingram: Nice. So knowing all that you know now and having been through this experience, if you were starting over today, would you have done anything differently? Would you have changed any of those transition points?

16:00 Tim Zielinski: You know, I actually wouldn't because the stuff that I… I guess each role I had, I had an interest in it and I wanted to be the best at it. I wanted to do really well and all those experiences added up have led to the success that I've had today, I would say. You know, back when I was a techie, like a software developer, I told people I'm kind of interested in the business side of things. I think I might want to get into sales. And people would laugh and say, ah, you can't do that. Like, you're a techie nerd. Like, you can't do that. You're gonna have to start in like a telemarketing role and then slowly move over. And I was like, well, I don't want to do telemarketing. And then when I got really successful in sales, I laughed because people would say, oh, of course you're successful in sales. You were a programmer, you were a developer, and now you're selling software to the people that you used to be, so you understand them. And I'm like, well, come on. Back when I was a techie, you told me I couldn't do sales. And now that I'm successful in sales, you're saying, oh yeah, of course you were a developer. So I just laugh because people want to have it both ways. But I think it did really help me successful because in my role in sales, I'm selling something technical and I can actually really understand the customer and I can speak their language. And I'm not super technical anymore, but they see me not just as a salesperson who's trying to make a sale and get their commission check or take my wife on a trip to Europe. I'm not that just kind of sales guy. I'm a sales guy that actually really knows them, understands their problems, and I can bring solutions to them, which a lot of times is my software. They appreciate that because they run into too many salespeople that are just trying to get the sale and they can feel that. They want people that are more consultants or trusted advisors, which is what I try to be.

17:42 Scott Ingram: So I'm really curious about that precise topic because I've actually had just in the last week or two, a couple of pretty interesting conversations and some of them with like really high-level executives who are like, you know, I wonder if, you know, I've been in this field all my life, right? Like I've spent my entire career in marketing. But I wonder if I could be really effective in sales. So, I'm curious about your thought on like which of those skill sets is harder to develop, right? Whether it be the technical or the marketing or the, you know, whatever the specific role perspective or experience is or the sales side. Like, is it easier to get one or the other, right? Is it easier to come from the business and move into sales or is it easier to be in sales and develop kind of the business acumen or the technical acumen?

18:30 Tim Zielinski: That's a good question. I would say, I mean, I think you could go either way. It would seem to me that sales would be a better start and then going to the business side from there. I love sales because there's so much to it. I mean, every other role I had before sales, I got bored of it after a couple years. You know, you do something for long enough and you get bored. You kind of feel like you've mastered it or you've tapped out. In sales, there's just so much to it, and a lot of it is business. I mean, the software that I sell, a lot of times I'm sitting in front of a C-level, sometimes even a CFO. And I see it very much as business because a lot of times we're building a business impact presentation where we talk about, hey, here's what your life is like today without my software or without my solution. And it might be an analysis of what it's costing them or the problems they have and the dollar amount associated to that. And then here's what life could be like with my software, with a full ROI analysis. And those are things that are very much to like a C-level CFO a lot of times. And that to me is, that's understanding business. It's documenting, hey, what are our issues? What are our challenges and what's it costing us? And then what would life be like if we tried to fix that both from a time and resource and cost perspective? So, I think that was a long-winded way to answer your question, but I would say yes, from sales to business would seem more logical to me.

19:54 Scott Ingram: Gotcha. Gotcha. Very nice. So, I mean, the show is called Sales Success Stories. We should probably tell the story of a sale. What was your favorite sale? What's your favorite sales story?

20:06 Tim Zielinski: Favorite sale. I mean, one that comes to mind was a big manufacturing company, automotive company. And when I took over the account, a previous rep who was no longer at my company, had done a small deal of some software, basically because that person had a relationship and it was a small, small sale. But this company was huge. And when I got the account, I had to go in there and basically tell them what they bought was probably not the right thing. And that salesperson that sold them, again, was no longer at my company. They had moved on to something else. So it was very sensitive because they had just bought it And I had to tell them like, look, what you bought probably wasn't right, but look, I can help you fix it and I could get you on the wrong path. So, it was kind of… not the wrong path, the right path. So, it was kind of a sensitive situation. And a lot to me of sales is psychology. It's like understanding who are you selling to, what are their careabouts, what are their issues, what's their personality, what drives them, what motivates them. And then aligning yourself to that. At this company, it was such a big company. It's one of the biggest automotive companies in the world. But there were a lot of different personalities of doing that. And just coming in, it was a… I love the story of it because it was a potentially very sensitive situation where I'm coming in telling them, hey, you might not have the right thing, but I can lead you to the promised land. That those kind of things take time of building rapport and trust. With a client and then showing them that you can really help them get to the right way, something of value. So, I had to basically rework their contract and find other people that wanted to move that way and build kind of a group of people that all wanted to go that way. And it turned into where they became one of our biggest customers for my company. It took a lot of time and effort, but it's one of those things where, I mean, here's another thing about that company. A lot of the people that had worked there had been there 15, 20, 30 years. So, they had worked with many salespeople. And when you're the new salesperson in the door, they just automatically don't trust you. So, it's, you know, how do I build that trust and rapport with somebody quickly and get them believing and buying into what I'm saying and then leading them down that path? And like I said, they became one of the biggest customers for my company. And at one point, they were even on our stage at our conference. And that was very gratifying, especially when I think of how I inherited them and how they weren't really happy when they started in that path.

22:40 Scott Ingram: Nice. And what is your approach to build sort of that trust and that credibility quickly?

22:45 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, I think it's 2 things. I think I look at any meeting with a client in 2 ways. Number one is you got to make a friend. You have to care. You have to be curious. You got to know what are their goals, what drives them. Even beyond that, like, I'm not saying to be too personal, but there's clients I know that I know their kids' names, or I know their dog's name, and I know how to spell the dog's name or the kid's name. I know their birthday. I even remember one of my clients just a couple years ago, we met after several years and I asked him, hey, how's your daughter? And I said the name and I spelled it to him. And it was kind of a spelling that most people wouldn't think of. And his eyes just lit up. He's like, how'd you remember that? So to me, when I'm meeting with somebody, it's all about making a friend. Like, Be a friend, be a trusted advisor, be somebody that really cares. Because if you have that caring part of it where you're a true friend, that leads to other things where they start to share things like what are their needs, what are their pains, what are their goals. And you start to realize how maybe like your solution, which for me, it's selling software, how does my solution or software align to that? And then just in every meeting, being valuable. It's not just, you know, going into a meeting with a client and saying, hey, what keeps you up at night? I mean, that is like the worst salesperson question ever. I see salespeople ask that and people just roll their eyes like, oh, who's the next salesperson that's going to ask me what keeps me up at night? I mean, you got to go in there to a meeting, make a friend, and then find a need. And you got to have some kind of like value hypothesis where you think what their potential problems are and how you can align your solution to that. But it's being curious and providing value to them in every meeting.

24:30 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I'm going to start answering that. You know, I sleep very well at night. I don't actually wake up… just cut that off. Like, that's got to stop.

24:38 Tim Zielinski: Yes, people will absolutely answer it like that because it's just the old drawn-out question for sure.

24:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Well, Tim, let's transition and talk about and kind of lean into the idea of the discipline and the focus and how that shows up for you. And one of my favorite questions to ask is, I'd just love a walkthrough of what is your day? How are you structuring your day? So your alarm clock goes off, what time does that happen? And I want the blow-by-blow till your head hits the pillow.

25:07 Tim Zielinski: Good question. So I wake up at 6:00 AM, and of course I drink water right away. But I wake up, I drink some water, I get a little bit of… I actually start my day with a little bit of protein powder and maybe some some, you know, fruit, a little bit of carbs. But I get going with that, and I basically have my prayer time. I'm a spiritual person, so when I start my morning, it's about 40 minutes of prayer, spiritual time, just to get going. And then I get my oldest off onto the bus. She's a high schooler, so I just make sure she's off onto the bus. And at 6:45 is when my kind of prayer, spiritual time ends, and then I get my cup of coffee I check in on sports. I'm a big sports fan. I like kind of all sports. So, I typically go on ESPN. I get my coffee for about 10 minutes. So, about 6:45 to 6:55. And then, 6:55 is really when I sit down at my desk and I start my workday. And when I say start my workday, the day before, I've already planned out my full workday. What I mean by that is I have a piece of paper and basically every 30-minute increment of my workday I have planned out. So, when I sit down with my coffee, I'm like ready to go and I have it planned out in a manner that the biggest rocks or the most important things that I need to do, I do right there first thing in the morning. Now, when I was a sales rep, the first things were a lot of times prospecting. It was a lot of times first thing in the morning, do my prospecting because without pipeline, without opportunities, you got nothing to close. A lot of times that was the most important thing. Sometimes when I was an individual contributor, it might be a big presentation or it might be preparing for a big meeting I had, but it was always what's the most important thing I need to do today? That's the first thing I do in the morning. And that first 90 minutes, I'm a big fan of Ari Meisel. He calls like, he calls his beginning of the day his power hour. I actually make it 90 minutes because I've read a lot of research into things where they talk about someone can be in that productive, in-the-zone state for up to 90 minutes. But once you hit 90 minutes, you need a break. So, for that first 90 minutes of the workday, I'm doing my most important things. And that might be 1 or 2 or 3 different tasks, but it's the most important things in my day. And like I said, it was prospecting at one time. Now, I would say it's a lot of like prepping for the day or prepping for tomorrow. And sometimes it's even following up on the previous day. So that's my first 90 minutes. Then I take maybe a 10 to 15 minute break. I might go walk outside, just relax the brain. Then I come back. And then a lot of times it's about 8:40 by then or 9 o'clock and my meetings are starting or my one-on-ones with managers. And then I work till about 11:30 AM. Then I take my break, which is typically a workout. So 11:30 to 12:30, that's when I have my workout time. I have a, little home gym in the basement where I do a workout, take a shower, and then after an hour, I come back to my desk, which is 12:30, and then I work till about 4:30. And typically, it's meetings or calls, things like that. So, that's until 4:30 and that's my end of the workday.

28:22 Scott Ingram: Nice. And when do you do kind of that planning and prep that you're organizing and structuring your day for the next day?

28:28 Tim Zielinski: Yep. So, my workday typically ends at 4:30. So, at about 4 o'clock, that's when I'm wrapping up the day. So, I look at the calendar for tomorrow. I build out those kind of 30-minute increments. And then, I have a task list that I just use in Microsoft Outlook or Office 365. I have all my tasks for the day and I bucket those and say, okay, what are the most important things? And I put those tasks in each like 30-minute block and I have my whole day planned. And usually, that's kind of invigorating because then I'm like, all right, tomorrow, look at all the stuff I'm going to do. And then, when I come in the next day, it's already kind of locked in my head of what I'm doing and I don't waste those early hours on, okay, what should I do today? It's like I've already thought about and planned out what the most important things are. So, when I'm ready to go and productive and I have my coffee, I'm jumping right into those most important tasks.

29:18 Scott Ingram: Beautiful, beautiful. So, I'm really curious about your one-on-ones. So, I'm sure you have experienced these from all kinds of perspectives, right? You were in the field probably having one-on-ones with a whole variety of different managers and then you had them with your team and now you have them with these leaders. How are you structuring your one-on-ones? Where do you see kind of the best one-on-ones take place?

29:39 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. It's different from week to week depending on where we're at in a quarter, right? If it's at the end of a quarter, a lot of the time is spent on like the forecast and the deals and what's really going to happen, what's not. So, it's… I try to make it kind of like an evolving meeting based on where we're at in a quarter. Also, like, after you just finished a quarter, that's usually a pretty stressful time. So right after a quarter, like it's kind of more of a relaxed meeting because you can't continue to just drive people too hard. And then I also sometimes look at those one-on-ones and I say, you know, I might just need time to connect with this person and ask them how their family's doing or how's their dog or how are their kids and just make sure I have that connection time. So a lot of times when I'm going into a one-on-one, I look back to my notes from the previous ones and see what we had talked about. And then I think about, okay, where are we at in the quarter? And based on that, kind of build out a tentative agenda for what we're talking about. I mean, I would say just this week for the RDs that I'm talking to in our one-on-ones, a lot of it is where are we at in the quarter and what are those deals that are going to get us there? Because for us, we're hitting our busiest, best quarter of the year. And we're just wrapping up month 1 of that. And now you're looking at November, December. And as we all know, November, December, you really don't have 9 weeks there because there's so many vacations and things like that. People are out of the office. So, it's really this week, it's really hunkering down, hammering down on the forecast. And what are those deals that really make up the forecast? And then diving deep as to what are the things we need to make sure these deals happen and getting creative, strategizing. So that we finish out a good quarter here with the opportunities that are in play.

31:27 Scott Ingram: Nice. So the next question that I typically like to ask is about your information diet. But before I go there, you created some information. You decided to write a sales book. Tell me about that. Why did you decide to do that?

31:40 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, so the book is called Sell with Swagger: The Quick-Hit Guide to Crushing Your Quota. At my company, I had done different trainings, like when they bring new salespeople in, they have a boot camp. For the salespeople. And I have a session in there. It's about 45 minutes where I teach them some of the things that made me be successful. It's a lot about prospecting and emails to use and stuff like that. And then over my career as an individual contributor, I had done other little teaching training type things. So it just got to the point where, you know, people were like, man, the stuff you've taught is really helpful. Do you have any more of that? And then I'm such a bookworm and I'm just such a learner. Like, I typically always have my head in a book about sales or business, or I'm always listening to some kind of podcast. I love getting mentorship from leaders at my company that, I don't know, over time, just some, again, that voice in my head, something in my head was just like, you got to write a book. And I hate writing. So, when I first heard that voice, I'm like, no way. I'm not a writer. I've even tried to be a journaler before. Like, I know some people that journal, you know, 20 minutes before they go to bed every night. I can't do that. I just, I hate writing. But that voice just kept coming in my head like, you need to write a book. You need to write a book. So, actually, 7 years ago, I started, tried to write a book and hated it. So, I stopped after like 2 months. And then I came back around to it 2 years later because that voice was still talking to me, Tim, you should write a book. And I tried it again and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try it different this time. I'm just gonna tell myself 15 minutes every night for 5 days a week, write something down. So I did that and I think it was again a couple months, started writing some stuff out and then I'm like, I hate this. And I stopped. And then 2 years ago, I actually got really serious and I'm like, geez, you just gotta do the book. Like the voice won't go away. It's something you should do. You already have a lot of the content through some of the trainings and and talks you've done at your company. You just gotta put the content together and hammer down, hunker down and do it. So 2 years ago is when I got really serious. And then the book just launched about 2, 3 months ago. So it's been a long journey that the voice I just couldn't get away from and finally got the book done. So proud to finally say I did it.

33:58 Scott Ingram: Nice. Nice. Is there one big thing? Like what's the thing that you hope people come away with after reading your book?

34:04 Tim Zielinski: Geez, the one thing I'd say, the one thing, it kind of goes back to the 3 points you, we started this podcast off with is discipline. I think discipline is one of the most important things in sales because, you know, I'll admit it, I'm a salesperson, I have ADD. I think almost every salesperson has ADD, which to me means a lot of salespeople can be busy all day. You could be busy doing so many things, whether it's talking to your boss or talking to other salespeople or planning for a meeting or updating Salesforce force or doing your forecast or handling customer issues. I mean, there's just so much you have to do as a salesperson. But at the end of the day, if you're busy, that doesn't mean you're successful. So, in the book, I talk a lot about being busy about the right things. And it's about time management. It kind of goes back to, you know, you asked me about my day and that way I structure my day has been such a key component of my success. So, the first several chapters of the book are a lot about just managing your time because I do think in sales, salespeople, we have ADD. And if you can focus and be disciplined on the right things, that's how you can truly be successful in sales.

35:18 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. So, you're constantly learning. I know you've got a rich information diet. Let's dig into that in some specifics. I mean, what are the books that have impacted you most? What are the podcasts that you listen to most consistently? What is that information diet? What are you listening to, reading, and watching, and when?

35:33 Tim Zielinski: It's always something different. I mean, in the beginning of my sales career, it was just like, it was anything. As I've gotten more intentional, I try to look at, hey, what is my current skill set and what am I trying to grow in? And I try to be intentional with that. And then I go try to find podcasts or books to fill in those gaps. And I would highly recommend that to people. It's like, I can remember when I was an individual contributor, there was always a time where I'm like, look, there's gotta be some new prospecting thing I can do, or how can I get into this account? And some of the books that I loved back then was The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes. Great book on how to get into accounts. Or Mark Hunter has some books, or Mike Weinberg, New Sales Simplified, great book. Or Anthony Iannarino, all have some great stuff on prospecting and getting into accounts. I would say as a manager, as a coach, it was a lot about how to be a successful sales coach. So looking up books specific to that, I would say Mike Weinberg's got another one there, Sales Management Simplified. Anthony Iannarino, I think, has some great books on management. I'd say, oh, there's just so many podcasts. I'd say I love The Brutal Truth About Sales and Selling, just because Brian Burns is in the same industry selling software. I love podcast. As a manager, I've been listening a lot to Force Management, John Kaplan, and the Qualified Sales Leader book. That's another one. John McMahon. Geez, all these names are just flying through my head. So, I don't know. I guess it's about being intentional and saying, what do I need to work on? And then going to find those books or those podcasts and just looking up on Amazon for certain topics and finding things that can help you in your career and really sharpen your sword. I mean, I talk about it in my book, I look at my sales day, which is about 7:00 AM to 4:30 or 5:00. That's my prime time selling hours. So, that's when I'm in meetings, selling, being successful at my work. But after that, I have some time for family. You know, you sit down for dinner, you get the kids to things. And then at night, it's sharpening my sword. When I say that, it's learning, it's reading books, it's watching videos online, it's listening to podcasts. Even sometimes you need some humor in there too.

37:43 Scott Ingram: Corporate Bro.

37:44 Tim Zielinski: I love some of Corporate Bro's videos and podcast type stuff, but it's in the nighttime hours. That's when I'm really trying to do the self-help or self-learning to be a better salesperson. And I kind of call that sharpening my sword, which just means you're going to be more effective during your primetime selling hours of 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM.

38:01 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. What are the tools and apps that you can't live without?

38:05 Tim Zielinski: Tools and apps, obviously LinkedIn. That's a just awesome tool for connecting, finding people. I know a lot of my salespeople use LinkedIn Sales Navigator. Salesforce we use all the time. I hate to say it, but I just use the Google machine. I mean, typically if I'm prospecting or learning about something, I'll just go in Google and type in somebody's name or their company. That's how I find annual reports. That's how I find, do research on people that I might be meeting or prospecting into. Those are the biggest tools that I use, just LinkedIn, Google, ZoomInfo. Is another one to find contacts. But yeah, those are the big ones.

38:43 Scott Ingram: Nice. Tim, I'm curious, do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

38:49 Tim Zielinski: A particular sales philosophy? I mean, the one that comes to mind right off the bat is MEDDIC because they've rolled that out pretty aggressively at my company. And I think it is a great philosophy as far as qualifying deals, but it goes beyond that. And I think It's important, especially for new salespeople, because so often, you know, salespeople, they find somebody that's interested or willing to talk to them, and we kind of get happy ears where they're willing to talk to us, so we just keep proceeding down the path with them. But I like MEDDIC because it causes us to kind of stop and really qualify the opportunity and find the key points or information points that are going to move the deal down the next stages. So I would say MEDDIC. That's just the biggest one on my mind because we're going through it. Before that, a few years ago, we were big into Challenger Sale, which that's not necessarily a methodology, but it's, you know, it's about challenging your prospects, giving them meaningful insights. So those are kind of the 2 big ones that come to mind for me just because they're pretty recent.

39:52 Scott Ingram: Nice. And I'm going to ask this more from your style as a leader. How would you describe your style?

39:57 Tim Zielinski: My style, I'd say a player coach, but also taking a step back because when I say take a step back, I can't be the one that comes in and takes over. I don't want to be that person. And when I first became a manager, that was just my natural inclination because I was an individual contributor for 9 years. So I just wanted to come in and take over deals that reps would bring me. But over time you start to pull back and realize, You can do more if you're enabling people. So, I'd say now it's a question-based approach. And when salespeople come to me, it's just, it's kind of questioning them or talking with them through questions to get them to come about the answers they need to instead of just sales reps will come to me all the time and say, Tim, what should I do here? What should I do there? And it's so easy for me to just give an answer like, oh, you should do this. But I've realized I just need to pull back. And instead of saying, you should do this, questioning them and saying, well, what do you think you should do in this situation? Or sometimes you might even start answering and saying, well, I think you… well, hold on. Well, what do you think you should do? Or how do you think you should go about it? And when you ask salespeople those questions, it causes them to really come up with the answers themselves. And at the end of the day, they're going to learn faster doing that than just watching me do it. So, going back to your question, I think I'm trying to, in the best way I can, use questions to help my sales reps become the best they can be, but also being very understanding and empathetic and kind of knowing where they're at and not just being that dictator sales leader, but someone that's understanding and cares, being curious, cares about them, not just as a salesperson, but also in their personal life. And being a true friend. I think it's, I know it's a lot of things, but I don't just want to be that sales leader. I do want to have a personal friend relationship with people because at the end of the day, like I said, if people know you care, they will be so much more, you're just going to have so much more of an effective relationship with your people that report to you.

42:04 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Love that. Love that. So what is it that ultimately drives you? Like what keeps you disciplined and focused?

42:12 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. I don't know what it is, but something was put in me that I just always want to be the best. I don't know why something was in me. I even, I kind of joke about it in the book. Like me and my friends, when I was younger, we could be riding our bikes to the ice cream store, just, you know, 4 or 5 of us riding our bikes. Let's go get some ice cream. And I had to be the first one there. It wasn't even a competition, but I had to be the first one that got to the ice cream store. I couldn't let anybody beat me. Just little things like that. And I'm a very competitive person. And I think as I've gotten older, it's, I feel so fortunate with a lot of things where I was born, the family I had, the upbringing I have to be living in the United States. I mean, let's be honest. There's people that are born in other countries and they just don't even have the opportunities that I have. You know, some people just wake up every day and they're trying to figure out where am I going to get food today? Where am I going to find my next meal? I mean, I don't have to worry about that stuff. So, I guess it's gotten for me, I just feel so fortunate with my upbringing and who I am and the gifts I've been given that now I got to be the best version of myself. I got to be the best person I can be because of the opportunities and the things that have been given to me. So, I still have that competitive nature of a need to be the best, but it's more, I got to give back and I got to be the best I can be.

43:33 Scott Ingram: Solid. Solid. Is there something that the typical or traditional sales leader believes that you think is crazy?

43:42 Tim Zielinski: So, I do think there's, if I were to simplify it, I think sales leaders are in one of two camps. Some of them are a manager and some of them are a player coach. And managers to me are kind of the sales leader I never wanted to be. Like they're the, babysitters. They're sitting behind their Salesforce reports or their CRM reports, managing numbers, doing the things that, like I said, like a manager would do. And I always wanted to be the sales leader that was a player coach that was willing to get in the game. Like, put me in the game. I'm not just going to dictate and tell my sales reps what they got to do, but I'll get in there and I'll lead by example. At the end of the day, sales reps will learn from that, but I'm also there to enable my team, and I'm not afraid to roll up my sleeves and go to work. Too many sales leaders just want to kick back and sit in their home office. I hate being in my home office. I want to be out there. I always tell people when I interview sales reps, I say, look, I'm the sales leader that wants to get his sword and his shield and be on the front lines fighting with my team. I'm not going to be up on the hill or in my ivory tower, watching the battle go on and just sitting up in my, the comfort of my home office. Like I wanna be out there, sword and my shield fighting on the front lines. And to me, I think that's the big difference is as a sales leader, it's a tougher job than being an individual contributor, because now you got a bunch of people that you're fighting with and you're out on those front lines and it's not easier. It's harder. And if you're doing the right things, the right job and being the right leader, it is harder than an individual contributor. But some people get into management because they think it's gonna be easier and they're gonna kick back. You're not going to lead a successful sales team being a sales manager. You want to be a player coach.

45:29 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Along those lines, what advice do you have for somebody that is at that inflection point? Right? Like, I am an individual contributor. I've been successful. Do I stay down this path or do I go down this leadership path? Like, what do you say to them?

45:43 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, I would say, you know, challenge yourself on what your goals are. I mean, after I was in sales leadership and especially this year that just finished, I mean, when I got to the goal I wanted as a leader, which was everybody on my team over quota. Man, that was so gratifying. I mean, that was such an amazing experience. And I would say it was more gratifying than being the number 1 sales rep at our company, because being the number 1 sales rep was just me. And again, that was a great achievement, but it was just me. As a sales leader, now I was the number 1 manager, plus I had 6 people on my team over quota, that's even a bigger goal. You know, I just talked about trying to be the best version of myself. That's even a better version of myself than just being the number 1 salesperson. So, I think when I look back at it, me always saying, I just want to be an individual contributor, it got to the point where maybe I was being a little selfish and just worrying about myself. And I had more to give. I've been, like I said, I've been very fortunate. I had more to give, and taking the sales leadership role was the next step for me. So I would definitely say to other individual contributors, challenge yourself and just think like, do you have more to give? Because I think a lot of us do.

47:00 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And for those who are interested in going down the sales leadership path, what can they do? What should they be thinking about? How can they prepare while they're still an individual contributor to be a great leader.

47:14 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, that's a great point. So, that's something when I was an individual contributor, I had kind of started doing some of the leadership stuff because you get new sales reps on your team that were trying to find best practices and they'll call you. And so, same thing. I mean, I think almost as an individual contributor, you can be a sales leader in a lot of ways because you're going to get other reps calling you for your best practices and what they can do, how they can do. And I would say that's the best training ground. Is start to do some of that. Start to mentor other sales reps, start to help train and coach and enable them and see if it's something you like. If it's something you don't like doing, then yeah, you probably should just stay as an individual contributor. But if you get gratification out of helping others and enabling them, I think sales leadership, that's a sign right there that you should probably get into a sales leadership role eventually.

48:02 Scott Ingram: Nice. Nice. So, we've covered a pretty good amount of ground. Is there anything else that you were hoping to touch on that somehow we didn't get to or I didn't ask the right question?

48:10 Tim Zielinski: I would just say this, like, I love talking about sales. I think it's just the greatest profession. I really do, because it's so hard. It's challenging. I mean, I'm in a role now where I have a lot of salespeople on my team and it's a tough job. I mean, you could be prospecting, trying to get into accounts. You're getting rejected. You're getting lots of nos and you could be working very hard and you feel like it's not paying off. But, you know, those kinds of stories, it's It's to me like the Rocky Balboa, you know, the Rocky movies, the boxing movies. The reason Rocky's story is so amazing is because he was so down and out. It was that rags-to-riches story where it's the same thing in sales. You know, when I started as an individual contributor, I lived in Detroit, Michigan, and I moved to Cleveland where I knew nobody. So, for people that don't know, Cleveland's about 3 hours from Detroit. So, I moved to Cleveland where there was nobody in the territory here for 6 months, which right away tells you like, oh, there was nothing going on. And there was nothing going on. I had 3 customers that were mad at my company because they weren't getting value out of the product. And I had one opportunity that decided to go with a competitor. And that's what I started with. And there was never really any success in the territory here in Cleveland, Ohio. But after 2 and a half years of just hard grinding and prospecting, which it's a lot of hard work that you don't see immediate results a lot of times. But 2 and a half years of just phone calls, emails, going to events, meeting people, trying to get in these accounts… 2 and a half years underachieving. Like, my first year I had a ramped quota, I did like 40% to the ramped quota. My second year I had a full quota, it was something around 50%. So I was not doing good by any means after 2 years. But 2 and a half years, I hit my first big deal and I did over 200% of my quota at year 2.5. So, in that third year. And then every year after that, I did 200% of my quota. And that fourth or fifth year, I was the number one revenue-generating sales rep in the world for my company. And it was just because those first 2 years, I was diligent and I worked hard and I did the right things and I never gave up. And I constantly was improving, right? Listening to podcasts, reading books. And yeah, it was tough. A lot of salespeople probably would have quit, like, you know, 2 and a half years without really getting results. But I could feel it. And sometimes it takes that long, but that's why it was so gratifying, because I stuck to it. It's that Rocky Balboa rags-to-riches stories. The tougher it is, when you achieve success, it feels that much better. The victory is that much better. So that's why I think sales is such a great profession is it's tough. It's not easy, but if you stick to it and you do the hard work, it can be so gratifying.

50:59 Scott Ingram: Yeah. How did you get through that hard time? Like, what was the mindset? What were you doing? Because that's rough, right? You're like, I've been doing this for 2 years. Is this ever gonna pay off?

51:08 Tim Zielinski: Yeah, I was dumb. I don't… it was just like a blind faith. I mean, I could tell that the conversations I was having were going the right direction. And at the time, like, our sales cycle was probably 9 months. It was a 9-month sales cycle. So, you think about some of these accounts I was trying to get into, it might take years to get in the door and have a conversation. Like, it might take a year or 2 years to even get in the door and find the right person to have a conversation with them. And I'm selling to IT people. So, So, these IT contacts at accounts, they're getting just hammered by salespeople. I mean, the metrics say that some of these IT decision makers, they're getting 30 to 40 to 50 voicemails and emails a day from salespeople. So, for me to get through that noise and get a conversation with somebody is very difficult, which is why it takes so long. And then on top of that, you have a 9-month sales cycle. So, in that first 2 and a half years, it was just I don't know, it was a blind faith of, hey, I just got to stick to it. I got to keep grinding. I'm having the right conversations. I'm getting traction, but you got to keep doing the right things. And I guess going back to your question, Scott, one thing I did that really helped me is I, instead of always thinking about the results, which the results for me then was quota, right? What am I percent to quota? Instead of looking at my results, I looked at what are the daily and weekly activities activities that are the right things that I might not be getting the results yet, but as long as I'm doing those daily, weekly activities, I'm doing the right things. That's a huge point because if I were to look at my results and say, what are my percent to quota, I would have been depressed, right? Because my first year I did 40% of a ramped quota, second year 50%. I mean, those are not good results. And if you look at that, I would have quit. I mean, you're not being successful. You're… I was way below the bar. But instead I looked at what am I doing on a daily, weekly basis, which was how much prospecting am I doing, how many opportunities am I creating, how many meetings am I getting, how many demos. I was tracking all those little things and focused on those because I know if I did that, eventually the results would show up. And that's such a key point because so many salespeople look at the results… what am I percent to quota, how many dollars have I closed… and because they're not getting that they quit because they don't think they're doing the right things. And that's a major mistake because I see so many people, salespeople leave my company because they're not getting the sales, they're not making the money yet. But any sales job you do, you have to build your book of business, so to say, right? Like if I were to get into insurance, it's going to take some time to build your book of business. It's not just, you're not just going to start in a sales role and and whabam, like it's successful right out of the gate. Anything that's successful and sustainable and really attainable, it's going to take time. And salespeople got to realize that. And it goes back to my point about salespeople having ADD. You got to be focused and stick to something. If you have ADD and you're just bouncing around from sales job to sales job, you're just never truly going to have that sustained success. We have this microwave culture. Culture where people want it now, they want it quickly. It's like they want to play the lottery. That's not sales. I mean, if you want to have a successful, sustainable sales career, you got to stick to it, and it's going to take time to really build that sustainable success.

54:31 Scott Ingram: You know, I'm really, really interested in kind of both perspectives, right? Your perspective again through that time, but also maybe putting yourself in the place of a manager. I'm kind of surprised you got to keep your job that long with that level of performance. Like, was that ever an issue on the table?

54:48 Tim Zielinski: Years later, my manager told me that his boss was putting the pressure on me like, hey, when's that Zielinski guy going to get some results? Like, you got to grind him. Maybe we should not keep him around. So I did learn later that yes, but my direct manager told his boss, he said, look, Tim is doing all the right things. It just, it takes time. He's in these accounts. He's having the conversations. He's doing the right things. Yes. He's not selling much yet, but that will come. So yeah, I did hear that they were looking at me in that manner, but thankfully they saw I was doing the right activities and they trusted me to keep at it.

55:23 Scott Ingram: Nice. Nice. And how were you, I mean, how were you communicating that? Because I feel like that's a big part of it, right? If all they're seeing is the results, like you're in a huge amount of trouble, but obviously your manager saw like he is doing the right things.

55:36 Tim Zielinski: Yeah. I think for me then it was, you know, they tracked us on things like how many face-to-face meetings do you have per week? I remember I had an Excel spreadsheet that I would track that every week. What were those activities I was doing to show my progress? So it was face-to-face meetings, how many like calls, emails, dials are you doing? They didn't as much track that in field sales. That was more of an inside sales metric. So in field sales, it was really the face-to-face meetings. It was the number of opportunities created. It was the pipeline. And they could see that those activities were absolutely happening. And then also, you know, I would bring my manager out to meetings so he could see for sure and not just see that I was hiding behind the numbers because I see it all the time where salespeople will create opportunities that are fake. And you can kind of tell as a manager which salespeople are faking it and which ones are really doing it. You can kind of sniff that out pretty quickly. And you can also tell because the ones that are faking it, they'll create lots of fake pipeline, fake opportunities in Salesforce. So for me, I was doing all those things, but also I'd set up meetings and have my manager come out so he could see real that, yeah, I wasn't faking anything. Like, this is real stuff and I was motivated to keep it going. So it's, yeah, it's getting your manager around what you're doing and making sure you're doing those daily, weekly things that move the ball. Love it.

56:54 Scott Ingram: Love it. Well, I always like to end on something actionable. So Tim, what would you challenge our listener to do over the course of the next, say, 7 days or 2 weeks? To improve themselves and improve their results?

57:05 Tim Zielinski: I would say, look at who you are and where you are in your sales career and what are some things you need to work on? What are those key items? And then go find, you know, a book or a course online or a podcast that can help you get better in that area and get after it and consistently do that, consistently do that process. I'd say one thing for myself that has really helped is every Friday morning when I start my day, I work on my business. And I say it like that because so many people work in the business day to day, which just means they're doing the daily activities, they're doing the work, they're working in the business, that they don't take time to work on the business. And when I say work on the business, it's like, who am I as a salesperson and where can I grow? Where can I be better so that I'll get better results? And that's what I do on Fridays. And I would challenge people to do that, like find out What are those gaps you have and where can you get better? And then go attack that, find the resources to help you get better. And then maybe after a month or 2, like come back to it and say, okay, now where can I grow as a salesperson and pick up some new things? I'd even add more to this. Like as a sales leadership team, we just read a book called Atomic Habits. Great, great book. And he talks about not just setting goals, but building in the behaviors to who you are, because the behaviors are what actually get you to the goals. It's a book I would totally recommend, but That's how I look at my Friday sessions now is every Friday morning, like, what are those goals I have? And then what are the behaviors that back that up? And how do I build in those behaviors? Do I need to go read a book or listen to a podcast or take a course to help me be a better salesperson or help me be the better version of myself?

58:43 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. Thanks, Tim.

58:45 Tim Zielinski: You're welcome. Thanks for having me, Scott. Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, And for an invitation to our Sales Success Community, powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.