151: Sophisticated Prospecting and the Three Ts of Sales with Tom Barnes

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0:20 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve.

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0:32 Scott Ingram: Here's your host, Scott Ingram.

0:35 Scott Ingram: Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest is Tom Barnes. Until Tom very recently stepped into a new head of sales role at Praxis Labs, he was the number one enterprise sales director at Humu. Welcome to the show, Tom.

0:48 Tom Barnes: Hey, thanks for having me, Scott. I'm so happy to be here.

0:51 Scott Ingram: Well, I am so happy that we get to have a chance to have this conversation. I know you've got a lot planned, have done a fair amount of prep, but let's dig in with some immediate value. And talk about the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your success in sales.

1:07 Tom Barnes: Ooh, what an excellent question, especially to get things started. So the top 3 success factors of my success, I'd say in my career, my rocks that I really continue to hold on to, I'd start with grit, which I know it's a cliché. I know for the sports fans out there who like to make fun of the sports clichés, the grab your lunch pail and your hard hat. You know, I believe in it. So grit is definitely there. Risk-taking, being able to take risks. And I can talk through a few stories. I think that would be fun. And then a new one for me just within the last few years, which thank goodness I have it because it's incredibly important in not only my life, but for anyone looking to get into sales, into high-intensity business, is your mental well-being and/or spirituality. I would say those are the top 3 themes for me.

1:57 Scott Ingram: Brilliant, brilliant. Great set. And I know that we're going to touch on a lot of that as we get through this, but I wonder if you want to maybe give a hint. Is there a particular story about one of those 3 that really resonates that you think is important?

2:10 Tom Barnes: Oh yeah, I like that. I'll go with Frisk. So, hmm, without going too much into, well, we'll have time to talk through our story, our origin, where we were, but I had a very, and I'll tell a very quick version of this story. I had the opportunity to choose to go a safe route. With family business, continuing school, or take a plunge and a risk that would require me to move with my wife away into a place that was not at all desirable for us. And I decided to go the risk route. So for detail's sake, the risk that I was presented with is as I was graduating with my major from the University of Utah in political science, I was going to help my mom continue to run her family business, which was a temp agency. While I went to law school. So that's what I thought I wanted to do, who I wanted to be. And it was a blessing, but at the time I thought it was a curse in that she had let me know a week before finals week, my graduation, that, hey, I'm thinking of selling the business. And so that really opened up my mind on, okay, do I want to be tied to something that is tied to family or do I want to go do my own thing? And I've always felt that for me to be happy, for me to be successful, and a lot of it has to do with childhood and what type of childhood I've had, which if we'd like, I can definitely go into that because I think that's very important for me and my story was, hey, I need to do this on my own. I need to create my own path. Fortunately enough, I had a very good friend over at Domo, which was the crown jewel, if you will, of Utah Tech. It was due to Josh James being the youngest CEO of a publicly traded company at Omniture while he was there, sold it to Adobe, and then went to go start off this new thing called Domo. And I decided to go for it. I decided to change everything that I had thought I would do for years, which was continuing the family business, get to law school to help with that business, to expand later from that business, and decided, no, I'm going to go work in tech sales. And that was hard. The reason why it was risky is not doing the safe thing, the conservative choice. It was moving down to Pleasant Grove, Utah, which I was from Davis County, Utah. I'm in University of Utah Utes territory, moving to Brigham Young University Cougar territory. Not good, not fun for me at all. And people thought we were crazy for doing it. And after I got in and had some shots of recruiting people and getting people in, people weren't willing to make that move. They didn't want to go move an hour south to a place they didn't know. So it was very risky, but had I not done that, it'd be a very different story today. So I'm very grateful for that risk.

4:53 Scott Ingram: Fantastic. What a great story to kick us off. And I know there's lots more and I look forward to digging in. Why don't we first just give a little bit of context? And usually I ask folks to kind of explain their role and how they got to number one. Maybe I'll have you do both that with what you recently did with Humu, but I'd love to hear about this new role. And certainly we'll talk a little bit about making that transition, right? Deciding, hey, like, I'm performing really, really well here, but here's an opportunity to take a step up and lead a team.

5:19 Tom Barnes: Yeah, it's a good transition from risk too, right? Because it was a risky move, but one that I, even after just a few weeks, definitely feel good about and am so excited about. So less than a month into my role as head of sales for Praxis Labs, and I was at Humu, where I was the number 1 rep for 2022 this year, up until leaving a few weeks ago. And I was presented with an opportunity as Praxis Labs came to me to go and build something. It was hard to leave because Humu was beloved for me. I loved it so much. There's something very special going on there. We got to the Series C. We're just going to prepare ourselves as a business to get to Series D. Was excelling, was able to sell to the Bay Area, over to my home in Utah. So working with the accounts like the HPs, the Googles, the Metas, having a lot of fun, getting a lot of really good pipeline, working with great people. But again, it got to this point where, hey, can I go build something brand new from the start and have not only an informative but an instrumental part and what Praxis Labs is building as head of sales and a cause that I do believe in as well, that I think makes the world a better place. I thought it was a no-brainer for me to hop over into that. So to answer your question, yes, I was the top rep leaving in August. My colleague checked with him for this because I don't like to falsify anything. Let me know I'm still in that spot. So even though I'm not there, still considered top rep or sales performer. And yeah, that's where I'm at now.

6:56 Scott Ingram: Perfect. Perfect. We'll get into more of both, but why don't we talk about your results? What did it take to be number 1? What did that look like?

7:03 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So I started in June of 2021. I was ramping, but in that period for 2021 and the only 6 months I was there, I was able to close 3 deals to get me well above my ramping quota. And I left again, Humu, just in August and was number 1 in the company at the time. Do you want me to go as well prior to that, other companies?

7:22 Scott Ingram: I don't think we need to, but I would love to hear, I mean, that's a really quick ramp, right? You got to success really quickly, kind of came outta nowhere to get into that number 1 spot. What do you attribute that to?

7:33 Tom Barnes: Yeah, so Humu has a lot of sellers who are wonderful, very good sellers, and other leadership that has been there has been one of, hey, let's get well hunting. We gotta get the wells. We gotta get the super, super sophisticated white glove prospecting. Which I am a big believer in, but a lot of folks were of the mindset of that's the only type of prospecting to be doing. A very time-intensive look at every single email that's being sent out, not believing at all in any mass emailing, call it if it's 3 people or more than 3 people at a time. So definitely keeping things very locked in, doing LinkedIn outreaches that are very personalized. Whereas I took a different approach in that, hey, I want to be talking to organizations that sure, they may not have 50,000 employees, maybe a Splunk of only 9,000 employees, for example, but I want to be talking to companies that are trying to do something different in the marketplace, whether they're trying to create a new category or where they're trying to disrupt the marketplace, because that's what I'm trying to do. And that's where if we can help them understand how our offering is going to not only align with their needs, but more importantly, challenge them to be able to rethink the way that they're running their business so that they can have differentiated value in being able to either grab more market share or reduce their costs so that they can become that category creator or so that they can disrupt the marketplace. Well, they'll pay that at a premium. If you're able to do that. So that was a part of my ICP and folks that I was going against. And it also helps that, hey, when you're working with smaller organizations like that, they can move a lot quicker. And so instead of having that typical ramp where, you know, some folks or a lot of folks didn't close a deal until they had been in butt and seat for a year and a half, many others a full year. My very first deal was closed in 4 months, locked in another deal in 8 months, and then within 10 months had my next deal done as well. And then my biggest deal, my much larger deals took place, my last 2, just this summer before heading out.

9:46 Scott Ingram: That's really interesting. And I'm curious about kind of how you find and how you think about that balance, because I think a lot of other people get to the show by taking the opposite track, right? Their companies are maybe focused more on the middle market companies, and they say, you know what, I'm going to go after some whales and they're able to land a couple of very, very large accounts. And that skews the numbers massively in their direction. So how do you think about finding that balance? What's the strategy there?

10:11 Tom Barnes: I would say if you're not process-oriented or if you can't emulate that and follow a process, it may not be possible to do both. And what I mean by both, I'll kind of explain how I've always thought about it. You've got to have that front-end engine, which is the very white glove, very sophisticated prospecting. You've gotta be doing it. I'm absolutely not advocating to moving away from it, but what I also advocate on, and it does require a process, it does require you to be detail-oriented. It does require a lot of blocking and tackling daily and not missing out on any steps, is that backend engine where you are continually mining in new contacts. You are continually hitting them at scale. Scale and at volume, and you are continually finding ways within your process to ensure that the outreach is still personal. I'm a big believer, especially with all the tools that we have now out there, I'm a big sales tool fan, that we can make every outreach that we have personalized and at scale. And so what I'm not an advocate for is someone who will say, hey, the silver bullet is this white glove prospecting to only well accounts. Or someone who says spray and pray. The silver bullet is sending out hundreds, if not thousands of emails, that'll get you to success. I disagree. I think it's both. And not only do I think it's both, I think that the spray and pray is going to get you low-hanging fruit initially, but then you're going to fail once you've gotten all your low-hanging fruit. So it requires a process, which I can talk through if interested. Of combining the things that we do and the things that make up that sophisticated white glove prospecting into our prospecting at scale, making it personalized again.

11:58 Scott Ingram: Yeah, Tom, I have no interest in that. Let's keep moving forward.

12:01 Tom Barnes: Sounds good.

12:03 Scott Ingram: No, let's talk about that. How do you get to both? How do you find kind of that combination of really sophisticated, really relevant and thought-out prospecting at scale? Before I let Tom answer this question, let me just mention Outreach because this is the perfect point. Executing this type of sophisticated prospecting process without a sophisticated tool like Outreach is nearly impossible unless you're the most organized person on the planet. And even then, Outreach is going to help you be more consistent, more efficient, and more effective. And on top of that, their AI-powered insights are going to help you to continually improve your approach. For more, check out top1.fm/outreach. And now back to Tom and how he manages his sophisticated prospecting efforts.

12:54 Tom Barnes: Yeah, so I thought I invented this method and then I got to HOMU where, holy hell, very smart behavioral scientists, very smart people. It's an offshoot of a lot of folks who were at Google who came over to start it. So very, very smart people there. And the practice of time blocking I started doing that years and years and years ago, where every single day, for example, I am going to start my day with the thing that I want to do the very least, which for me at my point in my career, more so than earlier in my career, is prospecting. And so dedicating that time at the very start of the day to do prospecting as a part of that, doing hard prospecting, which is identifying a top 50 contact list that I've ran for years now of my people that I need to get in contact with. And I am going to call, leave a voicemail, get a personalized email and a LinkedIn touch to those folks 2 to 3 times a week. What I want to get, of course, is a no or a yes. And once there's a no or a yes and a meeting is set, opportunity created, Refill that top 50. So that's the strategic prospecting piece. That's the white glove, time intensive, where I am not considering it that I reached out to, at this point, it'd be like the chief diversity officer of, call it Merck. I'm not reaching out to that person, or I'm not counting that I've reached out to them if I don't have, again, that phone call, voicemail, personalized email, and a LinkedIn touch. So that's that first part, the sophisticated white glove approach. And the second approach is harder to define because it's very tool-oriented. There are a lot of steps to it, but in short, it is ensuring that all of my messaging that is going out, if I have one email at a time going out to 20 or 30 people, I need to ensure that I'm finding ways leveraging the system, leveraging what I'm doing so that the message is personalized for them as well.

14:54 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. So it's a little bit of both, right? It's not an all-in-one. It really is 2 different approaches, but carving out the time to make sure that you're executing well on both.

15:03 Tom Barnes: Exactly. And carving out the time every single day to be doing both. That's the hard part because yeah, once we have it built, an outreach sequence, a SalesLoft sequence, for example, those things aren't too hard to run. But what is hard to run is picking up the phone and calling the same person for the 4th time, sending them that email. So it's again, blocking and tackling and making sure that you never move away from that for both fronts, the backend prospecting engine, the frontend prospecting engine daily is what I would say.

15:32 Scott Ingram: And how are you differentiating those late stage touches? Because that's where it gets a little bit tricky, right? You're like, this is the 5th time I've called. This is the 12th email. You know, how are you making that stand out without it just being, oh my God, this guy is nuts?

15:45 Tom Barnes: Yeah, no kidding. There are ways that we can get creative with that. I'm a big believer in giving value to get value, right? And so So sure, some people will think you're trying to buy people. I don't think so, but sending an Audible, having some Crumbl cookies sent their way, that's a good way to get a late stage sent out to them to where you're not just being a pest. You're not just pestering someone. You are making their life a little bit better. You are giving them value as you're asking for value as well, but more of a, okay, someone who, let's get real, right? Help me understand how this is gonna make me better at my job and make me more money. Or my company more money, I like the idea of sharing third-hand sources that are super relevant to them. So whether I'm pulling from McKinsey and Company, whether I'm pulling a Gartner report, whether I'm pulling anything like that that has been sought out, that has been proven to be something that they would care about, that's how I can make it so it's not just, hey, when are you gonna talk with me? But it's, hey, I've been reaching out to talk to you. Take a look at this as a CIO. For the upcoming year. I wanted you to see what other CIOs are thinking about and what's keeping them up at night as they plan for 2023, for example.

16:56 Scott Ingram: Yeah, great, great stuff. I'm a big fan of the Audible book kind of play because there's… you can say so much with what you send to somebody in that, right? It's not just the gift itself. And I'm a big believer, I think the value of books is perceived way higher than what they actually cost. And then you can say just a lot with what that recommendation is and why you're sending it to them.

17:16 Tom Barnes: 100%. And if you have the blessing that I had at Humu, where our CEO and founder, Laszlo Bock, is a New York Times bestselling author, he wrote what many folks call the HR Bible, Work Rules, send them that. Or we had our principal advisor, Adam Grant. Everyone loves Adam Grant. You know, send them a book from one of the members of your board of your directors. Send them a book from anyone at your company if they've written one, but that can be hard to find. That was, I would say, a big differentiated blessing that we had at Humu.

17:47 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Let's get into a little bit more of the context, and I am super interested about kind of the backstory. What is your origin story? How did you get into sales in the first place?

17:57 Tom Barnes: Ooh, that's a fun question. It's a long answer. Is that all right?

18:01 Scott Ingram: Go for it. We're a long format show, Tom, so I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy the story.

18:06 Tom Barnes: And for your listeners, if now's the time that you change it to 1.5x to speed through it, I don't blame you at all. No. Origin story. Getting into sales. So when I was 14, one summer, I bought a bunch of window cleaner, a bucket, and a long pole and a squeegee. And then I decided to print off my contact info to sell window cleaning services. And wow, like bless my neighbors for giving up charity to me, 'cause it really was charity, as I'm sure I did a really poor job of cleaning their windows. And when I attempted to expand out of the neighborhood, I was met with no traction. So I kept doing a few there and I thought, Ah, this isn't getting it done. People don't want this. My service is not being received in the marketplace. I then started selling phone cases and screen protectors at a mall kiosk when I was 16. And I have to tell the name because it's so dorky and so funny. The name of the company was, and it still exists, Tricked Out Accessories, which is, that name will still always kill me. But this is when I found a love-hate relationship with sales. The rejection was hard, but once I learned, hey, you can make good money with my commission on top of my hourly rate, I thought I had hacked a code in life. I've always looked at life of, wow, if I could work enough hours in a week so that I average $40,000 a year, I've made it. I'll be doing so well. And then finding out, wow, cost of living. I'm crazy. That is not the case at all. And it was selling these phone cases and screen protectors at a mall kiosk where I also learned, not knowing this until years later, the value of selling outcomes and not features. Because one trick, if you will, for me was at the time they gave out a higher percentage of your commission for Bluetooth headsets. They were really wanting to push those. And so when folks would walk in and I could tell that, you know, they were on their phone a lot, maybe it was a business person, I would try to direct their attention to the Bluetooth headsets. And then as goofy as it sounds, I would talk about the solutions that it provided for other buyers that we had to some of the pains that they had. And I wasn't even talking about what the thing could do, but I would talk about what it can change in your life. And I sold a lot of those things. It sounds cheesy, but that was big for me. And I told you it was going to be long. I'm happy to keep rolling. I'd have to give a lot of credit as well to my 2-year LDS mission. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, widely known as Mormons, right? It's probably the most important thing that I've done in my life. I realized before this that although I had learned resilience through the fires of an awfully difficult childhood, I had not learned real work ethic and I had not identified my character, if you will. My rocks or values that make up who I am, they weren't there. They didn't exist prior to this. And it was in my LDS religious mission while befriending and loving the Argentine people, learning a new language, and really being dedicated to helping others for 2 years straight that my values, or I should say my soul was awakened and my search for my values and rocks in my life became clear. And I owe my work ethic and my belief in myself, as well as goal setting and achieving goals to my mission. I owe a lot there, I would say. And it was my childhood. Yeah. Like we can go into that as well because that's a big part of the origin story. But I want to check with you to see if that's something that we'd like to go into, if that's something that the listeners would like to hear about as that helped with my own origin story.

21:45 Scott Ingram: Absolutely right. What I love about this show is just the humanity of it, right? We all come from different places and different experiences, but those experiences shape us in oftentimes profound ways. So I'd love to hear about it.

21:56 Tom Barnes: Awesome. Yeah, happy to. So my childhood is one where most of the time at home from 12 years old and on, it included routine horror. My love of football and friends was the rod that kept me straight. And then my neighbors and friends who would take care of me and would check on me, that's what really got me through this. It was a very complicated situation because of alcoholism. I had Dozens of moments of real terror, things that you wouldn't want anyone, let alone kids, to be alone and to go through. And then also weeks or months straight of taking care of myself on my own, whether it was at my house, down in the basement, just hiding out, or living with friends for weeks straight. And all of this was under the covers because I had tons of friends and access to money so I could get by on my own. And I believe my mom was so liberal with money because she knew that, hey, with this disease that unfortunately had taken her and my dad, I'd be neglected. So she wanted to make sure, you know, I could get by and have access to that. So long story short, my mission taught me that not only can I achieve hard things on my own, but miraculous things can occur with goals, hard daily work, and the hope or faith of things working out for you. Always holding out hope, knowing that things can work out. And I'd say this catapulted me for my life.

23:16 Scott Ingram: Wow.

23:17 Tom Barnes: Wow.

23:17 Scott Ingram: Thanks for sharing that. I mean, it's incredible, the backstories and again, the impact that they have. You know, we got into the early stages of your career and window washing and phone cases and accessories and such. As you progressed through your career and kind of took on those learnings, I wonder, is there anything that you would have done differently? Or if you could start over today, How would you tackle a successful sales career? Would you have done anything differently?

23:44 Tom Barnes: Yeah, you know what I would have done differently, or I wish I would have had someone whispering this in my ear all the time. Yeah, what I would have done differently is I would have had instilled in my brain that your level on the stack rank is not a measurement of your self-worth. And I also would have told my younger self that you cannot rely on hitching your wagon to anyone any individual or any group to be successful, you have to make risky jumps, if even done alone, to find the places that will help you to be great. That's what I would tell my younger self.

24:16 Scott Ingram: So risky jumps. We told the story of your first risky jump. Have there been others? I mean, the recent one is one, right?

24:23 Tom Barnes: Yeah, this recent one is one. I was comfortable. I was, you know, at the top of the sales performance list, had big pipeline to close out the year. Had been at an organization where the leadership was not only very strong, but very well respected in the marketplace. And so that was risky for me to do that. You know, the decision to jump into tech sales the week of finals, other than helping a family business, that was risky for me. And my time at Pluralsight, well, let me talk through that. Yeah, I'm happy to. Maybe go back, peel it back, origin story as well to answer a little bit of that, if it makes sense, but let me know.

25:05 Scott Ingram: Yeah, keep going.

25:06 Tom Barnes: Okay, wonderful. So at Domo, my entry point into tech sales, I started there in 2014, and it was after being the top rep for 2015, I was the top dog in my department. Domo had invested a lot in their business development efforts, so much so that they were the highest paying. I'm not sure if this is confirmed, but I heard it from several people in marketing. They were the highest paying LinkedIn ads spender company in the world, and we were a startup. Because of this, it meant that tons and tons of resources were given to inside sales reps. There were a lot of inside sales reps, SDRs, et cetera. And a lot of sales clichés or phrases are widely used, but most of them can be full of shit, right? The one I will always agree with though is the 3 Ts of success or the 3 Ts of having a successful setup in sales. So one being territory, the other is timing, and the third is talent. So in 2015 at Domo, I was incredibly fortunate to have good timing and territory. Which enabled me to kill it in 2015. I finished at 212% my annual number. I was to be announced as the top ISR and to attend President's Club at our SKO. You know, thought I was going to be set up. And this is a whole other story if we want to talk about learning from failure and biggest challenge that I've had in my career. I can dive into that as well if you'd like, but I thought I'd be going to the Maldives as well as part of President's Club. I was rudely awakened to that, but things were going very well. At Domo. And I, at this time, had decided, is Domo serving me as much as it was when I first started here, or do I need to go do something different? And at this point, it wasn't the riskiest move at all that I've taken because I wasn't the first to leave from Domo to hop over to Pluralsight. I was one of the very first, but in total, there ended up being like 30 or 40 of us. So I don't mean to tell this story as, hey, this is a huge risk that I took, but once I got to Pluralsight, I loved it there. We were another pre-IPO organization. I was able to help to get through the IPO as a part of that. And I loved it. I had hitched my wagon to a group of folks from Domo who had then came over to Pluralsight as well. And we were, we had been together for years. We loved each other. We had great work with each other. And I realized that I had it all. In the sense of territory that I'd like to have, what I'm able to do, being able to have the 3 Ts of success. But I was topping out in terms of what I could do and what they could offer me in terms of my career. And so I had a very hard decision to jump and to be the first to jump because at this time folks were not leaving the company, to leave on my own, to go over to Qualtrics. For me, that was a huge risk. I was leaving something where I qualified for President's Club every single year. I loved my boss. I loved my boss's boss, and I still love them. They still love me. And I had to cut loose and leave on my own. And that was very risky for me, but it paid out for me very well.

28:18 Scott Ingram: Nice. So I forgot about the full extent of your background. You have really seen all there is to see in the Silicon Slopes, as it were.

28:27 Tom Barnes: I love that you know the Silicon Slopes. That's fun.

28:29 Scott Ingram: Why don't you share that? Because I doubt that all of our listeners do.

28:32 Tom Barnes: I know all the real sellers who have been doing this a long time, the talented people in Silicon Valley are rolling their eyes hearing Silicon Slopes right now. But hey, we're doing some pretty cool stuff. Nothing like y'all have done, and we don't have that. But Silicon Slopes, there's this emerging market in the state of Utah that extends from our capital, Salt Lake City, down to our church school, Brigham Young University, BYU. It's about an hour drive. And within that hour, there is a valley that makes up and takes really the whole population of the state. And it's been absurd, the amount of growth that there's been in tech there. We owe a lot to Novell, right? WordPerfect, one of the original pioneers of that. Owe a lot to Josh James, having Omniture go public and then be bought by Adobe. And then it was a lot of fun. I wasn't at Domo when we went public, but they went public a year after I left. I was able to be at Pluralsight when we went public. That was a ton of fun. And then was able to be at Qualtrics for the acquisition by SAP. And then SAP spun us off and we were able to go through an IPO there as well. So the place is rich for talent. The place is rich for a lot of great things. If you want to work for a Utah-based company that's headquartered out of there and still live in your state, of course, that's an option now. But if you love to be doing active things and getting out into the mountains, I'd say come to Utah where your cost of living will be less. Your houses will probably still be just as expensive, unfortunately, and come out to the Silicon Slopes. It's a great spot. I was not paid for that endorsement either.

30:04 Scott Ingram: I was going to say, we'll have to send this over to the Chamber of Commerce, but it's interesting. And there's a lot of sales talent in all of that too. And I actually think that there's a bit of an LDS connection to that? And I have some theories on that. Maybe you do as well.

30:18 Tom Barnes: I can either kind of give my perspective on it first, or you can give your theory. I'm good with whatever because you're spot on. I think you're right on.

30:24 Scott Ingram: I don't want to step in it, so I'm just going to let you share since you're a member of that community.

30:29 Tom Barnes: That sounds perfect. More than happy to do that. So I didn't grow up, call it, a member of that community. You know, my family wasn't for it growing up, but I just saw a goodness in these people around me where I was like, What are they doing? Like, these people seem really happy. Seems like they have a lot of good in them. And so I am a member now and I believe it and I love it. But from the theories that I've really been seeing on, hey, why does this sort of translate into good sellers? I'll give the bad version of it. So I'm being very objective and fair, which is, oh, and if I'm making anyone upset, I'm sorry for being a typical hater. And I'm not a hater. I'm not a hater. I'm a hater of the worst version, the bad version of this. But multi-level marketing. Utah is one of the capitals of the world for multi-level marketing due to how close people become as neighbors, as friends, where their business becomes other people's business. And so they get very comfortable asking for business from other people, which is the bad version, because again, I'm trying to be objective here. The good version of, I'd say, the faith and why it translates into strong salespeople is some of the hardest things that you can do in sales, if you've been in it long enough, you'll agree with me, is dealing with rejection. And when you dedicate and put your life on pause to go to, whether it's another place in the country or another place in the world, to go and try to preach to people about Jesus Christ, about your religion, and to deal with rejection, with doors slammed on you, words yelled at you, It is very good in building resilience, and it's also very good in being able to have uncomfortable conversations with strangers that you don't know and being able to learn about them and being able to learn what are the needs that they have, what are the things that would make them happier and better in their lives, and then being able to talk through with them and co-create a solution that is going to be able to answer those pains and to bring them more value in their life. And so that would be my quick, call it hypothesis on the spot as to why that has helped with sales talent here in the state of Utah, why I believe it's helped entrepreneurs and for a tech market to really get moving here in the last 15 years or so. So yeah, that's my take. What would you think, Scott? I want to know what you think.

32:47 Scott Ingram: You articulated it so much better than I would have, because my version is much more closely aligned to the second point that you made, right? It's kind of the grit that develops from particularly the mission, right, in kind of a formative stage of your life. I mean, if you can get through that, right, that's not an easy thing to do, then sales was no problem.

33:06 Tom Barnes: You know, you're right. You're right. Especially when you have people, unfortunately, because you got to talk about the ugly parts of it too, who aren't choosing to go out for 2 years on their own accord, but they're doing it due to societal pressure. Now talk about doing something that you don't fully believe in. That you're doing for others and then dedicating for 2 years on it with all of the void that you have from the things that a 19-year-old boy would want at that time in their life and not being able to have that, that'll build resilience for you.

33:33 Scott Ingram: There you go. There you go. Well, I'm glad we got to touch on that. That's a really interesting thing. It's validating for me. I have lots of, lots of friends in that community. So, it's good to hear that. Well, let's talk about, you are a great storyteller and I love getting into the story of a specific sale. Maybe it was a great win. Maybe it was an awful loss. That just taught you a lot. What's your favorite sales story?

33:57 Tom Barnes: My favorite sales story. That's a good one because with that, right, I could share stories that are so ugly and you'd be thinking, what the hell? Who are you and what are you doing working in this space? While also sharing some stories that you'd make think, wow, you actually have a good handle on things. So now it's just deciding which one to share, right?

34:18 Scott Ingram: That's quite the pick. I'm going to let you make that pick.

34:20 Tom Barnes: So one that's kind of a crazy but fun story, and I don't know why this comes top of mind, but it's not my very favorite, but I think it tells a good story about not giving up, is when I was at Pluralsight, this is many years ago, my territory was Bay Area. Not sure why I've had Bay Area for like the last 7 or 8 years or so. I've always been covering Bay Area, which I love for many reasons. I love that. But at the time I was working with Esurance, And the reason I'm going to share this story is because someone just brought it up the other week about how much they loved this story. And so I was like, oh, okay, maybe your listeners might like it if someone else is still remembering it from years ago, right? But at Esurance, we had created a really good champion and we had delivered a lot of really good value, but Pluralsight compared to our competitor, LinkedIn Learning, came at a premium and it was really expensive. And she had a peer who wanted to take Pluralsight out of their spending right when we had been working on a very large expansion as a part of our relationship. And it was for political reasons. Her peer wanted to take out Pluralsight, wanted to get cost-cut savings, because that was the main initiative that they were running, and wanted to try and meet with us to figure out what we were doing so that he could then take it to LinkedIn Learning to be able to create their success criteria of what LinkedIn Learning would be doing to replace us. And it was by listening very closely and trying to judge this person and their intent that I was able to pick up on that. That's what was happening. And where the story gets really interesting, but I'll also accelerate to the fun part through a lot of minutia, is it turned into a moment where I got a phone call from her peer, Art Attractor, telling me to stop working with her and to stop working with anyone at Esurance. And that he was not only going to make sure that they didn't renew and, and go through this expansion, but that the CIO, he had already met with them on that and they were already planning on it. And so I decided to get, and this I think is a really good story about creating a relationship that with your champion where, hey, this isn't just work, but we enjoy each other outside of work as well. You know, goes back to meeting your people in person, as we had done several times with her. And I decided to give her a call and I decided to tell her, hey, I caught wind. Your peer let me know that he's going to push very hard to have this deal canceled, to not get through the expansion that we wanted of expanding this to many, many, many other folks at Esurance. We either got to get this thing done or we're going to lose this, and I'm willing to completely take it on. I'm going to call the CIO myself. I'm gonna present why they would be crazy to do this. I will talk through the diff… not only the differentiated value that we've been delivering, but the business outcomes that they'll be missing out on by moving to LinkedIn Learning. And what ended up occurring by building the relationship with this champion is she said, Don't worry, Tom, I got this. I'm going to push it through procurement tonight. And I said, are you sure? Knowing what that would do for her. And she said, absolutely. You are right. This isn't fair. I don't believe in this. I'm going to stick my neck out on this, not just for you, but for the organization and for Pluralsight. I'm going to take this on. I'm going to hurry and get to the CIO, speak with him tonight. I'd called her at 6:00 PM my time, 5:00 PM her time. And I'm going to get with procurement so that the deal is done prior to that meeting happening tomorrow. Because her peer did outrank her as well. And it's a fun story because she got to the CIO, she got to procurement, we had a signature that night, and her peer came in to have that meeting with the CIO and learned that not only had they renewed with us, but there were a lot more, many, many more users added on, and we got a much, much bigger part of the business and delivered a lot more value. And it was a huge success story and a fun one for us.

38:24 Scott Ingram: That is so good. That is so good. You're reminding me, and I've told the story, I think, at some other point, so I won't belabor it here. But one of my favorite stories is also a kind of personal relationship story with somebody in Salt Lake City who was also just an incredible champion, like the type of deal that just couldn't possibly have gotten done if they weren't willing to go to battle internally, because I certainly I couldn't have done it by myself. So such a great story. Tom, you have had a lot of success across a whole variety of different roles and companies. From an accomplishment perspective, what are you most proud of?

38:58 Tom Barnes: Hmm. That one I'm thinking hard on, and I don't mean to make things too serious, but that's a serious question. So maybe I have to, right? Thing I'm most proud of, and it's also the thing that I beat myself up on the very most. Is being able to make it through what was a really hard childhood and being able to find my own family, if you will, and my own joy within that family and being able to do it in a way where I'm able to give the full love to my kids. I have 3 kids and being able to be with those that love me and I love them and being able to move forward and press forward and hopefully share the things that I am now blessed with in this life with all those around me and continuing to have that as my motivation so that kids who think they can't have that, kids who think they can't find joy are able to get that. So that's what I would say, being able to break the mold, if you will, find happiness where sometimes I wasn't sure if I was ever going to find it. And having a future ahead of me to where not only am I going to have that, but trying to find ways to bring it to others as well.

40:10 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's amazing. And probably a good pivot point. I mean, you talked about in your top 3 success factors that wellbeing was a big part of that, right? And your mental wellbeing and spirituality. I'm sure that's a big component. What can you say about that? Like, what has that journey been? Because you also alluded to that being a little bit more of a recent factor for you.

40:28 Tom Barnes: Yes. Yeah. So my biggest advice that I'd give my former self… I know you answered that question already, but I just want to double down on it. And Ian, your speaker from last year's summit, really, really resonated with me. Like the things that that dude was saying about not just work-life balance, cuz it's so much more than that, but finding your real why in life and really sticking to your values and making sure that what you do is not only helping you to be a better person, but making the world a better place. It stuck with me so well. Like Ian, you're awesome, man. I gotta meet with you and talk with you again. And that's where I'm at right now, being able to understand that, hey, I have, I think, been diagnosed with high-functioning anxiety. I just figured out what that is. I do have this pursuit of success and never feel really comfortable with the amount of success that I've had. Always feeling like, hey, things could fall apart or I haven't done enough, still feeling guilt. So it's something I'm working on all the time, but just continuing to remind others and remind myself that your self-worth is not your point in the stack rank. And I'd also challenge whatever it may be, right? Because there… I'm a big believer, I'm a universal believer, if you will, in spirituality. So I challenge people to have an experience that awakens them spiritually inside. I'm a big believer in meditation. I've just been getting more into mindfulness. So go meditate, Go practice mindfulness. Take some alone time to a far-off place in the world. Follow Matthew McConaughey. Go to the Amazon alone, Amazon River, completely alone. Go trip out on… I think he took some ayahuasca or something. Go find your spiritual awakening. Do whatever it takes to open up that inside part of you. And if you can't get out and have that spiritual awakening elsewhere on a vacation, well, Commit to doing something hard every single day. I would advocate for mindfulness, you know, 14 days straight. I would advocate going to therapy, a big believer in that as well. Go read some books on these things. That's how I got started into it. Go read community programs on Reddit. That's where I did a lot of my mental work prior to opening up to official work with therapy. That's where I'm a big believer in mental health. And happy to help with anyone there. I'm not at all acting like I have it figured out, but what I do know is I know a lot more than I did early in my career, because when I was met with difficulty after not having much difficulty at all my first few years, it crippled me and it crippled me in my personal life as well. And that's not okay. And I don't want that for anyone.

43:05 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Big man. I appreciate you again, sharing all of that. I know that Ian definitely had a big impact on a lot of people last year. At the summit. I'm pretty sure, I'll have to double-check, I think we have shared that presentation publicly. So we will put that into the show notes if you go to top1.fm/151, because I actually know my numbers for once, or top1.fm/tom-barnes. You'll find all the details there. And because Ian was the number 1 ranked speaker at last year's summit, he will be taking the stage again this year. So Tom, you will have the opportunity to spend some time with, with Ian and talking all that through this year.

43:40 Tom Barnes: So excited because I would be crazy to miss your Sales Success Summit this year. I was not paid, listeners, to say this. It's the best event I've been to. At this event, the experience is the game. It's people that are actually in the field. It's not learning from teachers who are writing everything up on the whiteboard and never practicing it. It's got the synergy and symbiosis of having the right people in the field who are or I should say in the room from the field who are actively selling and doing these things daily. And it's been my favorite event in terms of the flexibility and how fluid it is. You know, you're sitting in… we have one in Utah, it's called BrewVees, but think about a place where they serve beer and food while you watch a movie theater. You're sitting there with an all-you-can-eat card where you write whatever you want on that card, put it down, and they're gonna bring you food and you listen to the top sellers in the country, talk about real-world results. I mean, it's incredible. So check it out, really get there if you can. Ask your company to put in the budget so you can make it there.

44:40 Scott Ingram: Well, I certainly appreciate you saying that, Tom. And just to give people a link, if you go to top1summit, the number 1, top1summit.com, we'll have the details there. And you are… not only did you participate in a team that came last year, you are planning on bringing your new team that You're forming. You wanna talk about kind of what's driving that and how you're thinking about that?

44:59 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So if my boss, the CEO, hears this on the podcast, it's their first time hearing it. So I don't wanna get myself in too much trouble with that. But yeah, I'm putting together plans in that we're building a sales force here at Praxis Labs. We're Series A. We are very young. They took the approach at a very smart approach in hindsight due to how successful they've been able to be. And just having a product out in the field for a year and a half. They released their product in April of 2021 of going very engineering heavy, research and development heavy. And then Elise Smith, our CEO and founder, she is just a natural salesperson. She's a killer salesperson. And so I was the first sales hire. She was driving sales for them, generating millions of dollars in revenue already. ARR in a very quick timeframe. And so they decided, hey, we're growing much quicker than we have been. Let's get in a head of sales. Let's get that head of sales to build out a team of SDRs, AEs, sales ops, get a real traditional sales force. And I thought, is there a better way of doing that than coming out in October with the first few hires to be able to bond, to learn from the top sellers, to be able to network with the top sellers, And to really be able to learn actionable things as I was able to do last year while I was at Humo. No, there isn't. And so we're planning on it. And again, Elise, if this is the first time you're hearing about it, I'm sorry, but it's something that I would see as a real differentiator and game changer for any org, whether you're a brand new Salesforce learning to come together and gain synergy together, or if you've been doing this for many years, together and you want to be able to crack the code even more.

46:45 Scott Ingram: Yeah, very, very cool. Well, the good news is there's a little bit of a gap between us recording this conversation and releasing it, Tom. So I'm sure you have an opportunity to chat with Elise and not surprise her in this way. But I mean, you are in this stage, Tom, where you're working on building your first team. Talk about that. How are you thinking about that and kind of the experience that you have and all that you have seen and applying that to what the profile is, kind of who you're looking for to bring on as you build out your new team.

47:14 Tom Barnes: Yeah, love that question. And what it really has turned into is an overwhelming feeling of imposter syndrome, which I've had for many, many years, and I get at bay and then it comes back again and again. But I also don't completely hate imposter syndrome. I don't think it's the vice or the chain that a lot of people say it is. You know, I kind of side with Adam Grant who says that and has seen through research that, hey, imposter syndrome, having that chip on your shoulder and that doubt always keeps you to be challenging yourself and to be growing. So I'm actually in a weird way, almost an advocate of it because the last thing that you want is to become a little proficient at something and, you know, good at something and then suffer the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is believing that you are the best expert at something when in reality you're just average. And that is getting in the book of Adam Grant, right? Think Again, getting to the very top of the mountain, but you're at the very top of Mount Stupid. And so I'm a big believer in not becoming that. And so the very first thing that I'm focused on is getting with as many mentors as I can, reading more than I ever have in my entire life. And then to answer your question, as a part of that, not moving quickly, but moving patiently, assessing the business, understanding that anything that happens now is going to impact the future. So it needs to be very thought out, very well understood. And then finding folks who are mission-aligned is really important for what we're doing there as well, which is ensuring that the workforce has the ability to drive equity in the workforce, to be able to drive their diversity and inclusion efforts. And so finding folks that believe in that, that, hey, they know that that makes the world not only as a necessary part of the world, but makes the world a very better place is a value that's very important. And then I'm a believer in being the CEO of your business. So if you're a sales rep, carrying accountability for everything. And I know I mentioned the 3 Ts. I still believe in the 3 Ts to success for sales. Again, the 3 Ts being talent, territory, and timing. Unfortunately, only one of those Ts is a controlled T. You can control your talent. You can identify your skill gaps. You can work to become better. So there is a part of you needing to identify of where you are If the 2 other Ts are still there for you. When I've identified at my career that those things could be going away or that they may not be there for me, that's when I made the risky move at a time to hop from something that felt super comfortable and super good to something else, even though it was the scary move at the time and felt like the risky move. And I wouldn't change it at all for how it's worked out for me. So I would advocate for that as well for folks.

50:12 Scott Ingram: Amazing. Amazing. So 2 things. The first one, your Mount Stupid comment is just, is stuck with me. And I'm playing with this idea of, you know, I have to maybe tie that into the summit somehow, right? Because the Sales Success Summit is a much, much taller peak. And I don't think any of us have made it to the top. And the people who don't come to the summit are probably standing at the top of Mount Stupid.

50:32 Tom Barnes: No kidding. 100%. If you think you've got life figured out, you're a moron. The more I know, the more I learn I don't know. You know what I mean?

50:41 Scott Ingram: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're not comfortable with this, it's totally fine. But you are working on something. So when you talk about your 3 Ts, territory is something that you can't directly control. But if you know a little bit about what you're walking into and what that opportunity is, and you shared something with me about something that you did in this organization to make sure that people really had a legitimate opportunity. Opportunity in their territory. Are you comfortable talking about that? Totally.

51:08 Tom Barnes: Yeah, I'm more than happy to. So if you don't have the ability, as I don't have it, I have a little bit of this ability to get by, but in this ability is the expertise with sales ops and being able to do sales analysis, being able to fully understand what means a good, a great, and a bad account for your business. Well, if you don't have that ability, go hire someone that does. Like ASAP. That's why as part of our growth plans, our investors in the growth plan, they first said, hey, you have this headcount, go buy a hunch of AEs. And I said, actually, no, I don't feel comfortable doing that. I wanna hire SDRs, sales ops in addition to AEs because we gotta figure out what does a good territory look like and what is a territory. Plan that will fit for scale, not just hire a bunch of reps and be okay with only 30% of them hitting, you know, like every investor plan. So I challenged that plan, but really being able to get in and understand what means a great account, a good account, a bad account, and then always being maniacally focused on making sure that those territories are equitable, but that they are also based on meritocracy, and that they also are built for the strengths for the specific sales rep that you have. So this is going to be a big listening practice. This is going to be a deep analysis of really getting to know your sales force, really getting to know these accounts. That's what I would share as my own part of my advice. And then always ensuring that you're shooting for more. You know, the last thing that a sales rep wants, and what is not a best-in-class sales force. I've been a part of one where they celebrate getting to 45% of reps hitting. That's not a sales force you wanna be a part of because what you find at sales forces like this, like the one I was at, is the old boys club of people who had been there for a decade. Their books and territories are so stacked that if they aren't getting exceeding their number while working 30 hours a week, It's maybe because they have a very low IQ. So I get, don't get stuck in the rut that is sales bro culture of nepotism, of over-rewarding early people who have gotten you to where you are. Of course they need to be rewarded. Of course they're the pioneers and innovators, but that's what, I don't know. I hope that's helpful without oversharing too much.

53:44 Scott Ingram: Well, and you're not familiar with how big of a soapbox issue this is for me. This, I think, is one of the things that is probably driving the most toxicity in sales. And it's this VC-led idea that your quota is too low if more than 80% of your team is achieving quota or 75% or wherever they draw that line. For me, I believe psychologically, mentally, Winners win and losers lose. And when you build a structure that is designed to create losers out of a large percentage of your sales force, you're just doing it wrong. So when you told me this, when you said, hey, they brought me this idea and I said, nah, no, we're going to take a little bit more of a thoughtful approach and you're going to create a team of winners that really have an opportunity. It's just so refreshing to hear that, right? And this is what it takes, right? It takes true leadership and people stepping up and saying, yeah, that's not right. The right way to do this is this. And I can't wait for you to generate some legitimate results here over the next couple of years to be able to prove that this is the better approach.

54:52 Tom Barnes: No, thank you for that. And it also shows that, hey, if you're going to take that risky move, which some people just completely count out, which is jumping to a Series A, you have to vet who the investors are. You have to know what they're like. You have to do all of your deep research because you can have all the best intentions of the world. And at the end of the day, you don't answer to yourself. You answer to someone else. You're going to be compelled to run business in a way that maybe you don't want to. So that's another thing I'd throw in there. Really invest, or I should say invest time in who those investors are. If you are jumping to an early stage company where, hey, That authority and that influence that they have is crucial to your working style and what you can be able to do.

55:35 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Such an important callout. So what is your due diligence process in that? Like what were you doing to kind of validate and get to know and understand the investors and just making sure that you had that right kind of alignment?

55:48 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So you'd be a fool not to do the first part, which is connect with them, engage with them. Get to know what they're like, whether you're at your current company and you're doing it for the future, or whether you're interviewing at one of these companies and you ask to meet with them. So I was able to do that and felt really sure of myself and good about being able to come and lead in a way that I knew needed to be done to be successful in a way that really suited my strengths and the strengths of the rest of our executive team. I'm also a huge believer, and I know I'm going to sound like someone who's paid I'm not at all in any way by certain places, but Bravado, hop onto Bravado, hop onto these other sites where connect and network, get with people, talk with people. If you're interviewing at a company and you haven't blindly reached out to several of the salespeople there to understand what that company is like, well, shit, you're taking a big risk there. Get onto RepVue, you know, really do your due diligence. In your research before you ever are considering jumping elsewhere. And the beautiful thing is with things like RepVue, things like Bravado, and really LinkedIn, you can get any information that you want if you just ask people for it. You can understand, okay, is this a super risky move or a slightly risky move? And if it is super risky or slightly risky, is it still containing the recipe that fits with my own strengths for this to work out and be successful. So again, big advocate for research.

57:22 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. Absolutely. And I did, I threatened for maybe years to create some type of resource for folks to help them in that due diligence process. I don't know what's wrong with me. I forgot that I'm a podcaster and it would be really easy to do that in audio form. So if you look back a couple of months ago, there is a bonus episode that I did just kind of Talking about how to do your due diligence around a sales role, but I continue to build on that and ask that question. And you know, just in the last few weeks, I've had conversations with some folks that had been let go or things just didn't work out in their job. And these are super high quality people. And so I really want to understand: Is there something that you could have asked, or is there something that you could have looked at when you were coming on? And sometimes, I mean, one of the answers I heard was. No, I knew, I kind of felt it in my gut, but they ignored those things. And, you know, that came back around. So, you know, be intentional, take that time to really flesh out these roles because it makes, it makes such a huge difference. So, Tom, we talked about what you're most proud of some time back. I'm interested in kind of the flip side, like personally for you, what do you find to be the most challenging part of sales, or what do you struggle with the most now?

58:36 Tom Barnes: Thing I struggle with the most now with sales is still not being able to control every single outcome that's going to occur. I have a hard time with that still, only being able to influence and create the variables that will influence and increase the odds of success the very most that I possibly can. But the end of the day, even if you are the best seller running the best sales process and you've invested all of your time into, call it, one account and some macro element comes in that just kicks the legs out from underneath the organization and kicks the legs out from underneath you, I'll always have a hard time with that. That'll always be hard for me. And then also the biggest challenge that I've had that really helped me the most. Would it make sense for me to jump through a story there?

59:30 Scott Ingram: Of course.

59:31 Tom Barnes: Cool. So if I think about like the biggest challenge that I've had, where I was struggling the most is one thing I didn't mention at my time at Domo. So for reference sake, Domo again was my first foray and jump into tech sales back in 2014. It was a complete rocket ship for me. I remember getting in there and seeing the possibilities there where I set the goal and I'm like, look, if I'm not getting into 6 figures in my second year here, I'm gonna be really upset. And so I set the goal of, well, I wanna get into 6 figures before I'm 25. And the year before, so 2014, I was 24 and I didn't get to that 6-figure goal that I had. And I was pretty bummed out, but I was able to work hard enough to where I got to that goal in 2015. And I got there much quicker than I thought I would have. So it carried a lot of the Dunning-Kruger effect. That's why I share that context. It carried with it, I thought I was the man. I thought I knew I had the 2 Ts. Of territory and timing in my favor. And I thought I already had the talent thing figured out just a few years into tech sales. Now I did a lot of sales before that, but I was pretty new to this and I got myself immediately to the top of Mount Stupid. So at Domo 2015, I was the top rep in the department. Again, Domo had invested a lot in their business development efforts. They were the highest paying LinkedIn ads company in the world. And I was incredibly fortunate to have that great timing and great territory. I was so fortunate, which allowed me to finish at 212% of my annual number for 2015. I was to be announced as the top inside sales rep. You know, I was told by my boss, my boss's boss, my boss's boss, I was going to be attending President's Club. It would be announced at our SKO with a ticket to the Maldives. And I was thrilled. You know, I was feeling so good about myself. I got to the SKO. I was sitting at the table and a few people had elbowed me and like smiled and said, you excited? And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, oh, come on, man. You're gonna get announced. I'm like, well, yeah, we'll see. Right. I still didn't wanna count out for it. And a decision was made last minute due to a power player at Domo in the sales force who was producing… and maybe I'm speaking too much, but I don't care, this is many, many years ago… who was producing a coup within the company to take out the other sales leadership and to leapfrog and have them taken out. Due to the efforts by this person, they switched the metric that was going to decide who qualified for President's Club day of, and I wasn't announced to go to the top of the stage to go and receive that award. I was crippled. I felt cheated. I felt like I was a fool. I tried to get out and leave the place. I didn't have my car. And so, and then no one wasn't willing to take me. So I sat around for a bit and I'm like, screw this. I'm walking out of this place. And that was a huge challenge for me. I was very angry and felt very cheated. But from this moment, I also learned You can't trust anyone. Go make your own path. If the place that you're at isn't doing that for you, make your own path and find it. And I also, through this, was humbled in that I learned, hey, I don't have even close to everything being figured out. I didn't foresee this happening. How could I have everything figured out? And then was humbled when I didn't have the same mojo going after that. Sales became a little bit more difficult for me there, but fortunately enough, that was also an impetus that taught me, hey, you go do what you got to do for you and find a place that is not only going to give you the 2 Ts of success, timing and territory, but the place that would have the leadership that would never do you dirty like that. Hmm.

1:03:43 Scott Ingram: Hmm. You know, it's so interesting when you talk about the 3 Ts in that way, because I feel like too many sales leaders have abdicated their responsibility to help people develop their own talent, right? I mean, too many are just, are left on their own, right? Like, go figure this out. And I think that's a huge opportunity for, again, the true leaders to create that path, right? Whether it's a career path and progression, or it's just the development path and progression. To help people get to that next level so that they can get to the levels of achievement that they want. And, you know, I guess it's just the broader culture of sales that you kind of have to take this on yourself, right? You had to, you, you had to decide, you know what, I'm ultimately responsible for this. I need to control. And that's where we'll go next. We'll talk about lots of controllables and how you control them, Tom. But I mean, do you feel this way, right? Like ultimately it's all up to you to take control of that talent component.

1:04:39 Tom Barnes: I feel that way. And you see it everywhere, everywhere. You know, I've worked, I've seen it in bits and pieces, and then I've had the rare leader who really believed in developing their people. And I'll just say, once you know it, once you see it, you shouldn't do anything else other than that. I'm a believer in, and this is a great book, by the way, it's called The Qualified Sales Leader. And he hits on this piece a lot in the book. That, hey, look, if you have a rep leave the organization and it's because they weren't successful, that's on you as a leader. Because A, you either hired the wrong person where their skillset didn't mesh with this, or B, you didn't help develop them. Because so much of, call it tech sales in the tech industry at times, is hiring for potential. And hiring a person for who they can be, even more importantly at times than bringing in the finished product of who someone already is. And so I am a big believer in shifting that culture. I'm a big believer in changing and just hopefully smashing that to pieces with those I work with and with those who, who I can meet with in that my role as a leader and how I take it on is to elevate those to a higher level. It's by uplifting, if you will, the experience that others are going through together, co-creating that development plan together, and not just saying smile and dial, hit the activity metrics and make this happen and gimme your forecast. And why is your forecast off? Why aren't you forecasting higher? You know, that's the old way. It's the crappy way. I don't think organizations will be market leaders if they continue to run that way. I think those that are going to disrupt marketplaces or create new categories are those who really take in development and who view it as a leadership responsibility and who create a culture or foster a culture of learning and development so that reps also take it on themselves to be doing their own work and to take that on as their mantle and their responsibility. I think it's a twofold… I think it's leaders and ICs taking that on.

1:06:53 Scott Ingram: 100%. 100%. I mean, it is definitely both, right? This isn't something that I expect leadership to be solely responsible for, but yes, it shouldn't be one way or the other, right? It really should be a partnership. So I'm inspired by the way that you're thinking about this, folks. If you're listening to this, you're probably the right kind of people. So if you go to top1.fm/tom-barnes, I'll make sure that we have a link to the Praxis Labs career page, and maybe you want to check that out.

1:07:21 Tom Barnes: Maybe you want to reach out to Tom. Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. That's awesome.

1:07:24 Scott Ingram: So let's talk about the controllables now, right? So certainly frustrating not being able to control that which we cannot control, but I know that you are controlling a lot. Why don't we start by talking through just your routine and the way that you structure your day? So alarm clock goes off. I want to know what time that happened and give us the blow-by-blow over the course of your day.

1:07:47 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So my ideal and where I've been and where I advocate for everyone to be on, call it a specific morning routine, is one that wake up early enough so that the first thing that you do is meditation. If you don't believe in meditation or aren't about mindfulness or something like that, okay, that's totally fine. Replace it with something else that gets your brain going, whether that's reading a book, but do something where you're able to get present with yourself right when you start the day. And then personally, I really like working out. That's where I get my stress out of me. And if I'm not able to lift some weights and work out, I'm just not a happy person. So quickly moving on to that. That being said, this is now much harder that I live in the Mountain Time and I work in Eastern time zone. I have a 2-month-old baby, so I'm struggling and not practicing what I preach because right now, I'm not living that. The first thing I do is pick up my phone in my bed to go to Slack and email, which everyone knows is the worst way to start the day. So, if you're doing that, hey, I am too, but let's stop doing it together.

1:08:51 Scott Ingram: Love that. Love that callout. So, once you've done that, whether you started the right way or the wrong way, how are you kind of building and structuring your day from there? There?

1:09:00 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So I go off, I know this is a cliché because I think it's became so common, but I believe it's common for a reason, which is scheduling prospecting, because usually that is one of the last things that we want to do, but it's also one of the most important things that we need to be doing. So I'll block off 2 hours of pure prospecting time every single morning, Monday through Friday. Now there will be a time where that gets more difficult for me in my role. When I move away from being as much of a player coach, but I am very interested in understanding, okay, how can I still incorporate that in my part of being a full-on leader? As I know, I don't wanna butcher his name, but I think I'm going to, cuz I can't remember it. The CEO of Bravado, what he does, uh, Sahil Mansuri, that dude is always prospecting and he's a CEO of a company. So I think it's something that Not only as sales reps, not only as sales leaders, something that we always have to have in mind of never moving away from.

1:10:00 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. Brilliant. So you got the prospecting block out of the way. And I have to imagine that these days for you, part of that is probably recruiting in addition to the new deal creation that you're doing. How are you filling out the rest of the day? Are you time blocking from there? What does that look like?

1:10:15 Tom Barnes: Yeah, so I have to time block or else I'm going to have every single part of my day put into a meeting with someone. And so time blocking is a huge, huge, huge part of that. And then the other controllables that we can control on a daily basis, right? Prospecting as well as account research. And then as well, going through every deal that you have and seeing what kind of touch did I have with that deal yesterday and what kind of touch do I need to have today? To keep things fresh and to keep either pushing the group that I'm working with or being able to get to another group who hasn't currently heard about us. And so what I mean by that is looking at an account, looking at how I touched them yesterday, finding a new group to reach out to, and really being able to cultivate and nurture those deals. Because in enterprise deals, especially as all the listeners and everyone knows, It's all about creating groundswell across many different areas for you to be able to get a deal done. Like, you're not gonna get a deal done if you only have one person raising their hand, unless that person is in the C-suite. But I had 2 deals at Humu that took a complete battle because we had 2 hands really high by the chief people officer at both of these different companies. But guess what? The CIO outranked them, and so it was pushed back, and we had to aggressively discount to be able to get any deal done. So this is my very long tangent way of saying, always be expanding your influence across the account. Always be creating groundswell as much as you can. So dedicate each and every day that you have to going through all of your current opportunities that are in play, and then find a meaningful way to influence that opportunity, even if it's completely reaching out to someone that has nothing to do with the deal at the moment.

1:12:13 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. Brilliant. It's such an interesting callout because I think one of the maybe most common failings in sales or the biggest reason we lose opportunities is because of that single-threadedness, right? You've got this one really excited person who says all the right things, right? And makes you believe, but we've got happy years, and it's, it's very easy to make us believe that our stuff is great. It's a whole different thing to make sure that you have that level of conviction across the org and in all the places that you need for it to exist to be able to bring that deal across the line. So how specifically are you doing it? How are you making sure you get beyond those one or two hand raisers that, you know, at the end of the day are probably not going to be enough to get everything done?

1:13:00 Tom Barnes: Yeah, that's a really good question. And the key thing that I have to ensure I'm focused on as well prior to answering that part of the question, cuz I think it's super important and something I learned because I was doing such a poor job at this, is not to rely on your person, whether they're a coach or whether you're right at the executive buyer, to only be emotionally bought in. Because if they're only emotionally bought in, if they only have the faith and the hope of this doing big things for them, but they don't understand the commercials that are going to be changed from this, they don't understand the specific pain that your solution's going to solve, whether it's attrition, for example, and how much you're going to help that specific attrition rate, and in turn, how much you're going to help the overall business to be able to reduce their costs. If you don't have all of that planned out, all it takes is one detractor within the org that carries a fairly big stick or a big enough mouthpiece, if you will, to get to someone who has a big stick to say, why are we spending this much money on this? What does it actually do for the business? To then just have your champion or executive buyer to be able to provide their reasoning to why it makes sense without it being tied to any business value. So that is the very first thing that I'd be hyper-focused on. Even if you are only getting one person or one group sold, well shoot, they better not just be emotionally sold. They better be business sold and be able to communicate that internal business case very quickly on the fly at any moment. So they're internally selling that for you. And then sometimes you do have someone, a champion that likes you, believes in you, but they want to control everything. And it's determining, okay, is this person a champion or is this person a coach? Because if they're acting as a champion, but you've really… your meter's going off, well, where they have a coach, there's a really good way to go around them without upsetting that relationship, which I learned this recently and I'm a big fan of it. Started implementing it a few years ago. You personally don't need to go around that person because you may kill that relationship and you may not have that person as a champion anymore. You may misdiagnose and think they're a coach and they're actually actually a champion and they actually could get it done. And then you kill that relationship and you kill your deal. So a way of being able to go around them to be able to create even more groundswell without disrupting that relationship, go to someone above you, go get that executive mapping, have them reach out to the next person that that gatekeeper won't let you get to. And then reach out and say something like, hey champion, I wanted to let you know my VP of Enterprise Sales wanted to reach out to your CFO about X. I just wanted to give you a heads up. It's going to be happening so that you're not the bad person doing it. You're letting them know that, hey, someone up way higher than you is wanting to talk about this initiative with someone at their organization so that you're maintaining that relationship, but you're also not beholden to the gatekeeper and keeping your influence there.

1:15:59 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. Brilliant. That is such a great play and such a… you and I talked about this… such an important theme that we're going to be digging into in this year's Sales Success Summit, because, you know, one of the things I recognized in having talked to, you know, dozens of top enterprise sellers, they all say that the most challenging part, or the most time-consuming part of enterprise sales is the internal selling, right? It's the amount of work, oftentimes the majority of the time they have to spend in getting the rest of the organization aligned behind this effort that is involved in a big deal. And there's very little information and resources about this, right? So it's a huge part of the conversation that we're looking to have. And it's these types of things. It's how do you leverage other executives and other people in the organization to map these connections and to build their own relationships so that you don't have that single-threadedness. And I think it's so critical in this market where, you know, I work with lots of large enterprise accounts day to day, we're starting to see layoffs. And if you don't have that kind of breadth of relationship, you might find, oh, they just did a round of layoffs and everybody that we were connected to and talking to is now gone and you're done.

1:17:10 Tom Barnes: 100%. And especially for sales leaders, it's something we need to think about because as a sales rep, you can get by and still be okay if you're getting your deals done. The year after, there is some major churn and you're losing those accounts. As leaders of the business, that's gonna kill your business. And if you're shortsighted as a sales rep, what I mean to say is you can get by in a shortsighted way, but especially in land and expand type organizations, if you're not multithreading the initial land, you're not gonna be able to count on that expand to take place because that initial deployment in essence needs to expand its influence. Influence to other parts of the business for them to want to expand the deal, number one. And then number two, with how common layoffs are becoming, that person that you sold into, that business unit that you sold into for the land, shoot, at time of your anniversary and your renewal with them, they may not be even at the organization anymore, as we're finding time and time again. Yeah, yeah.

1:18:16 Scott Ingram: I mean, crazy stuff happening. I have whole divisions that are being spun off. Now, in this case, that's a great thing. For me, right? Because it creates more opportunities across the board. But there's a lot of stuff. Change is about the only thing we can count on right now, and there's going to be a lot of it. And it's just, it's such, such an important topic. So I really appreciate you bringing that up and providing an idea that is just so actionable and so easy to execute that more need to be doing it. Tom, are there other habits or routines, you know, beyond kind of that morning routine that is really central to your success?

1:18:50 Tom Barnes: I'd say it is continually developing yourself. It's continuing to make mentors and meet with people. You know, Howard Schultz says it, CEO of Starbucks, if you watch his MasterClass, like continuing to always reach out and connect with people who know a lot more than you do about certain subjects and being able to learn from them. Books, books, and more books. You know, I'm a big believer in nonfiction books as well. Don't forget to explore with your imagination, to exercise the creative parts of your brain. You know, so often people get so stuck on only reading sales books or only reading betterment books, self-betterment books, or, you know, business books. Hey, go read a fantasy series. Go read a post-apocalyptic book, sci-fi, whatever. Go get your story playing in play. Go get that imagination going. And then as well, go read your classic incredible sales books like Let's Get Real or Let's Not Play, The Challenger Sale, The Qualified Sales Leader. Go read books by business experts that really help you to not suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect, as I have many times. Books like Think Again by Adam Grant, and really develop who you are on a daily basis, as well as doing the ugly parts of your job daily. So the blocking and tackling, and never move away from doing the hard things. Because once you get too comfortable and you stop doing the hard things, that's when you're going to stop progressing and stop growing in your career.

1:20:22 Scott Ingram: Brilliant. Well, and you set me up perfectly because I always like to talk about the information diet, right? The things that you're reading, listening to, and watching. So you already started to give us some book recommendations. I would love to know, when are you doing that? When are you doing that development? What are your go-tos and kind of favorite resources and books and all the rest? Before Tom gets into his information diet, let me call out Gong because the last few minutes really has me thinking about Gong as a tool to study yourself. I often talk about Gong being a tool where you can learn from other top performers inside your organization, but you can also learn about yourself. You can go back and review a discovery call in an earlier stage of a deal and be reminded of key value points and quotes that you can bring forward into the later stages. But also think of it like studying film. You can watch yourself perform and look for areas of improvement. Gong is such a powerful tool in so many different ways. Go check them out at top1.fm/gong. And now back to Tom and his information diet.

1:21:26 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So one thing that I learned is one thing I was doing wrong. I was fully on Audible, right, for my books. And I thought, hey, I can just listen to these books. It'll become a part of me. And what I quickly learned, well, not quickly, it took me a long time, not quickly at all, is, hey, I'm not retaining everything either. So for something that are going to be very, very critical for the new role that you're taking on, such as, hey, I'm moving moving into a head of sales role, that's going to have some skill gaps and new things that I haven't encountered before. Go and get very prescriptive with the type of learning that you're going to be doing. Instead of doing the Audible, go get the Qualified Sales Leader and book and mark it up. Go old school. Go on Bravado and ask for a mentor, as I had done. Go onto LinkedIn. Well, LinkedIn is anonymous, so you're putting yourself out there a little bit But go find ways to find that mentor so that you're learning real-world experience, and then continue to look at events like Sales Success Summit. Continue to invest in yourself to go learn from folks and thought leaders in the world where they are the practitioners. They're the people that are actually doing these things. I'm a big, big, big believer in that, and I'm also a big believer in that 90% of the silver bullets as prescribed are not silver bullets. Silver bullets. You know, what we're doing is pretty complex and pretty confusing, just like life. Life is not black and white, it's gray. So always being able to understand that, hey, once you think you have something figured out, you might just be learning more and more about how much more you don't know.

1:23:03 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I love the silver bullet callout. You know, if there were a silver bullet in sales, I'm pretty sure after 150 of these episodes, I probably would have found it. Sadly, it's a little bit more work than that.

1:23:15 Tom Barnes: Right. And we would be very close to being replaced by androids already.

1:23:19 Scott Ingram: True. There is something special about the human. You know, the other thing that resonated is you said it's, it's not black and white, it's gray. I don't know about that. I think we're in full like Wizard of Oz mode and turns out there's freaking millions of colors. So, you know, there's, there's so many ways you can tackle this and it's probably best to just Do the work and find your way, because that's probably the thing that's going to work best at the end of the day.

1:23:43 Tom Barnes: 100%. And I do believe that there are some non-negotiables, some rocks, if you will, that always need to be dedicated to, which is more of the hard hat, lunch pail, blocking and tackling the daily things, right? Picking up the phone, just doing the action. But I've also been in a place where I was doing the actions continually, maniacally focused on them. And not following a good sales process, and it will not get you the same results. So I'm a big advocate of, you know, find the sales process that makes sense for you and your business. Hopefully it's one that resonates with your skillset and your strengths as well as the need of the business. But that is the most important thing. Now, my favorite is Command of the Message and MEDDPICC. However, find out what makes the most sense for your business, and then hopefully you can also understand Hey, there's good symbiosis here because the sales methodology of my business also works best with my own strengths.

1:24:43 Scott Ingram: Okay, let's keep talking about that because I always ask if folks subscribe to a particular sales philosophy or methodology, and I'm not familiar with Command of the Message. So, oh cool, about all of that.

1:24:53 Tom Barnes: Yeah, wow, that's cool you're asking that question. I didn't mean to jump into that. Sorry for beating you to the punch. So MEDDPICC is the qualifying tool as a part of force management. Or call it command of the message. And MEDDPICC, bunch of acronyms, right? Stands for, and it is harder when you're on the spot knowing that many people are gonna be listening to this metrics. So, hey, that's the quantifiable measures of value that this solution's going to provide. E is economic buyer. So you have to have that person identified as part of this qualification. D decision criteria. So that is going to be The criteria in which a decision to process with your solution will be judged. Decision process. Okay. What does that process look like? From which, what is the buyer doing as they make this evaluation? P was just added. It used to be MEDDIC. Now it's MEDDPICC. It's just paper process. So that's self-explanatory, right? I implicate the pain. So this means that you've identified, indicated the pain, and had it validated to you. That this pain can be solved by your solution, and they believe that it can. You need to have a champion. You need to identify the competition. And then they have a 3rd C for some, which is interesting, customer data, which is collecting customer data throughout the qualification process as you meet with them. That one, I don't know. I'm not sold on it. I don't think it's quite as necessary. But the idea with this is, hey, MEDDPICC is a great way for you as a seller to be able to qualify and to be able to get real or not play with your deal. Being able to see, does this deal have legs to it? And if it doesn't and it has a bunch of holes in it, okay, what do I now need to go and do to really embolden out this deal? It's really important for leaders as well because this is something you can do at scale. This is something where you're going to be able to scale the sales force So that they aren't spending time on crappy deals, but they're spending time on deals that are going to be as aligned as possible to the buying criteria of our customers. Command of the message is the value selling of this methodology, call it, not the qualification part. So really the definition is being audible, ready to define your solutions, to customer problems in a way that differentiates you from your competitors and allows you to charge a premium for your products and services. So it's all about differentiated value completely against their pains. And it's not being done, or at least it's not being done well if you're not able to articulate to them that, hey, you have this implicated pain, here's how we solve it. But not only here's how we solve it, Here's how we do it in a differentiated way, but most importantly, here's the business results that you can expect from that. Attrition is an easy one. You're going to be able to connect with them and let them know from what you've done for other customers is what, for example, you're going to be able to help them understand what percentage of your employees are you going to be able to influence so that they don't churn, which you can get solid numbers on because then you want to communicate back the business impact value. So that they can be able to know on a year basis, how much money am I going to save if this solution works itself out? And be conservative with those numbers, be very thoughtful with them. If you don't have a deep sales ops team or force, you know, these are things that you can find on the internet, dive deep into it, figure it out, crack it yourself. If your Salesforce isn't providing it for you, you know, you can crack this on your own, go innovate, go provide huge value for the company, as a previous sales rep at Humo did for us. And we were able to take that and run with it. So I hope that helps. But again, Command of the Message is all about presenting differentiated value as you co-create that differentiated value with the prospect. And then you help them understand how much money is this going to make the company, or how much money is this going to save the company?

1:29:01 Scott Ingram: And is that based on a book, or is there someplace that we can go to learn more about that?

1:29:04 Tom Barnes: Yeah, it's done by Force Management. So if you did like Force Management Command of the Message, there is a book on it. The book is really, really good. And then there are tons of different, call it partner programs, I believe, that you could bring in to do the training with you. But if you go to forcemanagement.com, that's where you would find Command of the Message and really any way of being able to have that offered to your sales force or to start learning it yourself.

1:29:29 Scott Ingram: Perfect. And of course, we'll have all the links, top1.fm/151. So Tom, those are kind of the processes that you're using. What's the style that you apply as you're executing those processes?

1:29:42 Tom Barnes: Yeah. So I'm trying to make it a hybrid because I did have a real moment where I asked one of my colleagues that I had worked with for a very long time. I asked them, hey, if there's something that I could change and be real with me about making myself a better seller. And a better sales leader, what would it be? And this person told me, hey, we're like really good friends, like becoming best friends. So, you know, I love you and you're very personable, but because I do believe so much in sales processes and I'm very process-oriented, and I do owe a lot of success, of my success to that, of being able to identify processes that work and then being maniacally focused on following them out. I was told, That the human element of me and that real Tom, if you will, I hold back sometimes and don't show that as much as I should or as early as I should to clients. And I was told that that was a skill gap that I needed to correct. And so upon hearing that, I really thought about it and I could see it myself where, hey, if you get too honed in on process, you can potentially appear to be a bit robotic. You can appear to be too corporate, right? And so one thing that I'm trying to change is I'm trying to create an amalgamation, if you will, or a hybrid of continuing to work with a good sales process, but also throwing that human element in early and often. That's the style I'd like to have, the ideal state I'd like to be in. But I think if I had to answer today, my style has been one of being highly process oriented, but I'm looking to hopefully grow that.

1:31:20 Scott Ingram: So here's what's most interesting to me in that is, I mean, the answer was fun, but how often are you asking for that kind of feedback?

1:31:28 Tom Barnes: So I'm a people pleaser due to childhood, and it's funny that I've never talked about it to this many people in my entire life, so I'm already feeling regrets and doubts and, oh no, a little anxiety, but I'll get over that. But because of that childhood and everything, it does create a people person. It does create someone who is very scared of criticism, or if any feedback starts occurring, any criticism against me gets brought up, my inner part of me assumes that things are gonna go really bad and really ugly really quick. So it has been a skill gap on something I've had to work on. I was not asking for feedback enough. I didn't feel comfortable asking for feedback enough early in my career. I'm now a believer, and it's not that I wasn't a believer before, I just don't think I was capable. I ask for feedback all the time. In fact, for my sales calls, whoever is on the call with me, I think that there needs to be a debrief immediately after the call. Of course, if you need a bathroom break right after, go and take it, but immediately after having that debrief call so that you can talk through the deal and so that you can not only receive feedback but give feedback. And feedback needs to be given. I like the sandwich method where you give a positive thing that the person did, put in the part where they could have done better in the middle, follow it up with another positive part, and never make it about the person. Make it about the situation and how a situation could have been done better. And then as well, being very, I would say, choosy with when you give feedback. Behavioral feedback, because there's a big difference between, oh, hey Tom, I see your deck you're about to send out to HP. You fat fingered and wrote tenant instead of tenant, right? That's not gonna upset anyone. And if it is gonna upset you for being told that, like you're in the wrong career. But when we're providing feedback on someone's behavior, if you will, that needs to be a lot more limited and you gotta be picky and choosy. With when you're doing that.

1:33:30 Scott Ingram: So is there some irony in the idea that you can be a people pleaser and yet not ask for feedback and therefore not actually know how to please people?

1:33:39 Tom Barnes: 100%. I'm a very messed up and complicated person.

1:33:45 Scott Ingram: That was not a personal attack.

1:33:47 Tom Barnes: No, no, it is. It's a very true observation and I see it.

1:33:52 Scott Ingram: Too fun. The world is a funny place. So I'm curious about just your drivers, your why. What motivates you? How do you think about motivation?

1:34:02 Tom Barnes: Yeah, so I used to be very money motivated. I just was because I viewed money as a security. I viewed money as a way to find joy and have the security so that things aren't going to go to crap. And if they do go to crap, At least you have a house over your head, right? And so I was very money motivated. Now what motivates me and what I strive and want to grow to even more is the ability to have more resources and possibilities to make an impact on the world as well as for my family and my children. It was after being money motivated that I realized and fully took it on that it is a necessary means to an end, but it is the outcome of what I could do and who I could be that motivates and drives me. So any way that I can be able to extend my sphere of influence, any way that I can pick up, whether it's a kid like I was who needs an adult mentor to help them out, that's really what motivates me. What I've seen is you get this decision, and I'd love for both of us to be here, Scott, where we are at this decision where the folks who have a lot, like I'm talking FU money, right? Like dumb amounts of money. They have a decision of making the world a better place due to the influence and call it authority that they have, or to continue to use that means to make that number next to their name even bigger and for that to be their driver. And I would always hope and always strive that We need more people that are going to do the former, that are going to try to make the world a better place because they can with the resources that they have. They can actually move the needle at large scales. That's what motivates me. If I could move the needle at large scale for those around me, that's kind of my… call it mission or purpose, if you will… where I feel good.

1:36:03 Scott Ingram: Yeah. I have an observation there, but I want to save it because I have a couple of questions along the lines of Was there a point in your career where the money motivation changed because you got to a place of enough? Like, was there a point in your career where you're like, okay, like I'm making enough money that I know I don't have to worry about money?

1:36:25 Tom Barnes: No, unfortunately I would, I'd give a hard no because I think that who we are as human beings and so much of who we are is we are never content, especially when we are desiring things that have anything to do with greed or anything to do with ego. And I know my recent book I'm listening to on mindfulness is coming out in that, like, mindfulness is the pursuit against anything that is greed or ego, right? Due to the state of unhappiness that it will always give back to you if those are your main drivers. So I think as human beings, we are so inclined to always be thinking more about what can I get for myself and how can I make things better for me, that for the most part, there isn't an amount. And maybe that's just my high-functioning anxiety and it's just a me problem and not as general as I think it is, but I'm always feeling anxious to move forward.

1:37:27 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, it kind of ties back to your observation before, right? There kind of being folks who maybe they get to a point, they get to an inflection point where they're like, okay, cool, I'm good now. And now I can focus on taking care of other people versus, you know, hopefully as we progress over the course of our careers, we continue to grow in our earning capacity. But I think done right, it's not a waiting thing. It's not like, oh, when I get to this level, then I'll help some other people. It really, done right, it's something you do all along, even in the tough places where you might not be in a great position to be able to help a lot of other people.

1:38:05 Tom Barnes: 100%. I think it's something where, and not to go scriptural, right? But shoot, it just seems so real that I have to share it. The widow's mite, the donation that was given to Christ by this very, very poor, and I'm probably butchering this story, because this is a lot of pressure and you know that other people are going to be hearing it and it has to do with religion. That added pressure just goes on. But the amount that she gave was so much less than what others had given. But for her, the percentage of that was everything that she had at that moment and how much more of an offering that was and recognized as such by Christ than any of the other offerings that were given that were so much higher.

1:38:48 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, I think that's perfectly said, right? It's what you give of yourself regardless of the means. But hopefully we're all in this together. Let's not be shy about the fact that we're trying to increase our means a little bit so that we can…

1:38:59 Tom Barnes: Oh, totally. And I'm very… unfortunately, I say these things because I know it's a skill gap that I have. I can tend to be very selfish. So it's things that I'm working on to try to not be so much that way. And it is something in sales. A lot of people, right, myself included, either are motivated by competition. That's me. Are motivated by money. That's me. And I try to work on it. And so it's this thing that we, I think, continually need to fight against, if you will, bring the pros from those motivations, but try to take out the cons as much as we can so that we're taking care of that third piece that I talked about, you know, your mental health as well, as well as who you are as a human. I think it's very important for that.

1:39:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Well, since we've pivoted to the philosophical, is there something you believe that the average or typical sales professional would think is crazy?

1:39:52 Tom Barnes: I like that question. Yeah. So something that some folks might think is a little crazy is my belief that the relationship part of a sale matters much less than what a lot of sales folks believe at the moment. I meet with a lot of sales folks who think it's anything and everything, that the success that they're going to get is purely based on the type of relationships that they're making. When in reality, my belief is sure, it's an important part of the recipe, if you will, of getting deals done and driving your sales. But most importantly, and Way more importantly is your understanding of the individual that you're working with, how you can help them to accelerate in their career. And then most importantly, for any enterprise decision to be made, really being able to understand what is one of the most pressing needs of the business at that time that very uniquely identifies with your solution and how are you going to be able to help them to make more money, And how are you going to make the organization to save more money? I may say that, hey, if there's a pie of this is what you need to get a deal done, I may think that 90% of it is helping the organization know how you're going to make them more money and save them money. And 10 or even 5% of it is only your relationship with that account and with the individual.

1:41:21 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting you say that. I mean, I think obviously the Challenger Sale kind of pushed on that idea. But one of my frustrations with that book is it kind of lacks the nuance, right? It painted it a little too black and white to where relationship bad, challenger good, not recognizing that, well, relationship is woven throughout this process, right? And part of being able to challenge somebody means that you have enough emotional intelligence to be able to position that properly. Otherwise, you're just an a-hole.

1:41:52 Tom Barnes: Totally. In fact, that's my… wow, it's almost like we planned this, which we didn't, on our gripe on the Challenger Sale. My gripe on the Challenger Sale, you know, they say the 2 best salespeople, the second runner-up is the lone wolf, the person who's just really, really, really good at what they do and they only focus on themselves. And then the very top performer is the person who is a Challenger Sale, is always going to be challenging everyone. And then the other 2, shoot, it's been a while since I read the book or thought about it, but one is like a service-oriented rep that they say those will be the lowest performing. And then the second lowest performing will be your relationship seller. And I don't know, I call bullcrap on it. I think a challenger seller is a relationship seller. I think if you aren't, you're just an a-hole, just like you said. Like, you don't earn the right to ask a question to challenge someone if that person doesn't trust you. And if that person doesn't respect you, which is there anything that creates 2 things that are more necessary for a relationship than trust and respect? I don't think so. And so you are not going to be able to be a challenger sell if you're not also incorporating the relationship as a part of that.

1:43:01 Scott Ingram: Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Well, we're certainly aligned on that, but what if I ask the question a different way? Is there something that the average or traditional sales professional believes that you think is crazy or part of the sales dogma?

1:43:13 Tom Barnes: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I might make a few folks frustrated. Social selling. I am so happy if someone wants to try and change my mind on it and get me to believe in it. Yes. I always think it's good to be finding new ways to connect with the market, with your contacts. I use Sales Navigator. I use LinkedIn daily. Of course. But the belief that I've seen at some sales forces, and it was a lot worse in the past than it is now, that their primary focus of lead gen, of pipe gen, needs to be their own behaviors on social media to be able to drive enough leads for their own book of business. I don't see it. I don't get it. I don't understand it. It's kind of like that Reddit. There's a great subreddit that's called Change My View, and someone will pose a question and then people are rewarded on those that can be able to change their view on something. I'm inviting all of your listeners to change my view on social selling and to try to get me to be a believer, because I'm not. I think it's a small part of what we maybe should be doing, nowhere near a primary part of what we should be doing for pipe gen and lead gen.

1:44:23 Scott Ingram: Yeah, fascinating. Actually, Becc Holland just did a session on Sales Hacker, and you can find this on YouTube. We'll put it in the show notes and She basically made the anti-case for why you shouldn't build a personal brand, right? And again, it's one of those things where we live in the Wizard of Oz. There are millions of colors, right? I don't see it as black and white. I think it is kind of finding that right blend. But I mean, when I look at myself, it's been months since I have posted anything on LinkedIn because I've been extraordinarily heads down. You know, I've had a lot of work to do and, you know, it's again, For me, you have to be really, really thoughtful about this stuff. And what's the purpose, right? Like, why are you doing something? Where are you spending your time? What's the real impact? So I think Beck makes a really good case for your side of that story, right? And it's interesting, right? I think there's value in both sides, but I think that's a pretty interesting challenge. So I guess we're now looking for the supporting argument, and we will have a session at the summit. We're going to talk about the importance of kind of building your brand and how you do that from Jheryn Kenney at LinkedIn. So maybe we'll get a dose of that and I'll be interested to gather your feedback afterwards.

1:45:33 Tom Barnes: Totally. And I love that you have that about the summit, right? Trying to be as objective as possible. I try to not base my identity on my opinions, but I try to base my identity on my, call it values. So I'm always trying to be able to be objective and change my opinions. I'm happy to change that one if presented with the right, you know, challenge to it. But it is my hot take, if you will. And I'm speaking even more, of course, for someone who benefits a lot from generating content, whether it's for a book or a pot, right? But if you're an individual seller with, call it, 2 states that you sell into and you think your primary focus is of lead gen for the accounts that you have is building your personal brand, and spending most of your prospecting time on LinkedIn, I would disagree and I just don't see it.

1:46:22 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you would very much agree with Becc's presentation and where I think she's absolutely right is a brand, the way I see it, is what other people say about you, right? So that's a different activity than going out there and saying things about yourself. And in my mind, one of the best things you can do for your brand is to perform. And for other people to know that and to add value to your clients, because then when your clients talk to their colleagues or they're willing to refer you or recommend you or be on a reference call, that has real weight and worth. And that doesn't come because you said a few quippy things on LinkedIn.

1:47:00 Tom Barnes: Spot on. I gotta watch that YouTube video. I'll just feel emboldened.

1:47:05 Scott Ingram: You'll have to look at your own show notes, Tom. We'll compare notes. 100% stuff. So Tom and I, both being family men, are being interrupted on this late holiday day that we're recording this interview. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to wrap things up so that we can both get back to our families. I might do a round 2 with Tom at some point. If that would be of interest to you, send me a note. Speaking of LinkedIn, LinkedIn's a good channel. Feel free to send me an email, scott@top1summit.com. Top1.fm. I'm sure Tom would love to hear from you as well. But we'll wrap this up at this point with that actionable thing, right? We've talked about a lot of stuff. We have a little bit more to talk about, and I think we'll probably find an opportunity to do that at some point. But Tom, what would you recommend our listener do over the course of the next week or the next 2 weeks to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:48:00 Tom Barnes: Oh, what a wonderful question, and I like that it's actionable, right? Behavior change and the science of behavior change shows that it can never be achieved if we're not able to make something habitual. So on that note, 14 days, 7 days, I'll go back to what I said before, challenge the listeners to have an experience that awakens them spiritually inside, whether that's meditation, whether that's going out on that adventure alone somewhere on the planet Earth, being able to do something and whatever it takes to open up that inside part of you. And if you aren't able to do that, well, shoot, you got a week, you got 14 days. Choose something that you've believed in, but you've not wanted to dedicate yourself to, whether that is mindfulness, whether that is seeking therapy, because those are hard things. Those are really hard things to dedicate and to go and do. I'd also say You know, if you hate reading, dedicate to reading an hour a day for 14 days. Go do something that you felt not only in your gut is something you needed to be doing, but something that you've been scared or felt like it's too much work and that you've wanted… not wanted to do. I would say dedicate yourself to do that daily for 14 days and see the type of change that it brings to you.

1:49:19 Scott Ingram: And then come tell us about it at the Sales Success Summit. Tom, this has been amazing. Thank you for your time and sharing so many great stories. I'll see you in October.

1:49:27 Tom Barnes: Awesome. Thank you so much, Scott. I appreciate it. See you in October. Love to hop on again as well. So thanks for your time. Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.