126: Attentive's Jenn Zhou is a Long Term Optimist and a Short Term Pessimist

0:00 Scott Ingram: This episode is brought to you thanks to the generous support of QuotaPath, Outreach, and Gong. To learn more about them and all of our sponsors who are supporting you through this show, just click over to top1.fm/sponsors. You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today, my guest is Jenn Zhou. Jenn is the top account executive at Attentive out of New York. Welcome to the show, Jenn.

0:45 Jenn Zhou: Thanks, Scott. I'm happy to be here. Thanks again for having me.

0:48 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. Really excited to have this conversation with you today and really dig into this. And I know you've listened to the show, so you know how this works. We always dig in with some immediate value. And I would love to hear what are the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your success in sales?

1:05 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so I would say the first one is a little bit of an out-there one. I think everything just truly stems from kind of self-love and confidence, as kooky as it sounds. I think not only is it just maybe like internally in the workplace, but externally with prospects, and even just outside of, you know, sales and work altogether in every dimension. I think with prospects, it's, you know, I think be direct and, you know, ask for the prospects, business when you know you did a great job. Call people out on their nonsense when, you know, maybe you feel like they're leading you on, stuff like that. Say no, be willing to walk away. I think that's really helped me, and it's like a little scary initially, but I think it's really… if I had to just pinpoint one thing, it's just having the confidence to, you know, do all of that. And even externally, outside of, you know, just on calls, just having in the workplace the self-confidence and the belief in yourself to kind of put yourself out there and ask for opportunities and promotions that maybe you know, you're a little hesitant on, or maybe the job description doesn't… you don't have 5 years of sales experience and all that, but, you know, knowing that you've been doing good work and, you know, you feel like you're qualified for it anyway, stuff like that. Yeah, and I would just say, like, people always ask me, like, okay, like, if I can have it, that'd be great, but it's kind of hard to develop that self-confidence, right? I think the main advice I'd have for that is just to kind of keep promises to yourself. If you say you're gonna do something, you know, always to other people, of course, but even to yourself, like, okay, go on a run tomorrow morning, go on that run tomorrow morning. Don't break the promises to yourself. And I think you'll develop that trust and, you know, that confidence more so then.

2:36 Scott Ingram: You know, that's so good. I was listening to something this morning and I, gosh, I wish I could remember the name of the individual, but he was talking about, you know, it's if you just act before you have time for the voice in your head to rationalize and talk you out of stuff, just do it before you get to that point.

2:55 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. And what, who's that lady, Mel something? She has that book of like 5 Seconds or…

2:59 Scott Ingram: Oh, I don't know that one.

3:01 Jenn Zhou: Mel Robbins, the 5-second rule. So it's basically like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, like before you get to 5, like, okay, snooze, you're out of bed. Like, don't even think about it. You literally just have 5 seconds to like go.

3:12 Scott Ingram: That's right. That's right. Oh, so good. All right. So self-love and confidence was the first thing. What's number 2?

3:17 Jenn Zhou: And the second one, I would like, I thought long and hard about it because it's kind of boring, but it really is just organization, just developing long-term processes that will set you up for success. And even though it just takes an extra few minutes right now, it'll save you infinitely more time later. So, you know, building that foundation. I don't know if you're familiar with Myers-Briggs. I'm ESTJ to a fault, and it's basically my… the epitome of my thing is just organization. And it's not like sexy or it's not the funnest answer, but I do think like, especially for my group, I work mid-market and enterprise users. There's so much volume, there's so much going on. Like, you really just need to create a process for everything. And I think like, of course, Being motivated is, is super important, but you're never gonna feel super motivated all the time. But when you have these processes and it's just kind of, you can run on autopilot almost. Okay, I need to answer this email, or I know exactly, I have these folders for exactly this. You save so much time than scrambling around, you know, a little bit more disorganized. So I think that's probably the second thing I'd say.

4:13 Scott Ingram: Perfect. And you know, I love the process. We will certainly dig into that. I'm gonna want to understand that on behalf of, well, not just myself, but each of our listeners. So that takes us to number 3. What's that?

4:24 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, number 3, I would say, is just having the mindset of taking personal responsibility. I would consider myself as much of a team player as the next person, but I feel like, you know, you can't loop in your sales engineer for every call, or, you know, if you want to generate more pipeline, you know, don't have to be dependent on your SDR. Like, be… have the skills and, you know, the process to do it yourself, that type of thing. And on a similar note, I'd say like maybe have more of, I think, not a victim mentality, for lack of a better word. Just, you know, for example, if you get randomly paired with maybe a not amazing SDR. You know, like, do the work and the training, you know, with the SDR more so. And, you know, you're dealt your card and you don't change your circumstance by complaining about it, but more so like, you know, doing what you can to kind of, you know, change that situation. And I think also like with the obstacles, it could also… of course, like, if you didn't have obstacles, that's great, but it's also when you do have it, it's almost better because you develop grittiness, for example, or you develop more skill sets and because you're put in a situation where you otherwise wouldn't have been able to kind of push yourself further. So yeah, I would summarize by the 3 main things that I attribute to my success is just having the confidence, developing the organization and the processes for long-term success, and just having a mindset of taking personal responsibility. Everything is kind of my fault mindset. That's what I would say.

5:43 Scott Ingram: Here's what's really interesting, and I remember Myers-Briggs well enough to really only have processed the first letter in, in what you, in what you described. So you're an extrovert. But a lot of what you described, it sounds like you've really internalized this. Like you've internalized, here's how I work on confidence and your mindset being around, I own this. Like it's, it's my job. So talk about that, cuz that's sort of an interesting dichotomy.

6:09 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, it's interesting because I would say I maybe, if I had to maybe give numbers, 60% extroverted and 40% introverted. Like I love being around people, but if all weekend I'm, I'm just seeing people after people, I'm pretty exhausted and drained. But on the flip side, if all weekend I haven't seen a single person, I'm I'm also kind of a little tired. But it's also, I think, just knowing yourself and knowing what you need. And maybe it's Friday night and everyone's like, Jenn, let's go and bar or whatever. And it's like, I really much prefer reading a book in that moment. And I just think staying true to what gives you energy in the moment. So, I think I'm kind of a chameleon. But yeah, I think to your earlier note, I just think the more you know about yourself and be really honest with yourself and ask the hard questions. I haven't always been like this and it's still very much so a work in progress, but just, I think just be true to, you know, what, you know, you know about yourself. Perfect.

7:01 Scott Ingram: Perfect. Well, let's, let's now kind of contextualize things a little bit. So talk about Attentive, talk about your role, talk about the kind of the adventure that you're on.

7:10 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. Attentive. So we do text message marketing. So I'm sure you, what's your favorite brand, Scott?

7:16 Scott Ingram: Oh, my favorite brand. That's so hard. Tesla.

7:19 Jenn Zhou: Tesla. Okay. Tesla might be a little weird, but if you get any of the marketing…

7:22 Scott Ingram: I can go with Peloton. That's, that's a Yeah, Peloton.

7:25 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, Tesla, Peloton, if you get any emails from them, but instead of emails, text message, because no one opens emails anymore, right? 15% open rates on an amazing day versus 90% of text messages get open in the first 3 minutes of it being sent. So that's pretty exciting. And the company in itself, we're about 900 people right now. We actually just hired like 700 people since COVID started. So business is doing really well, very grateful. And I think again, just correlated with the explosion in interest in text, but also just, I think, people seeing us as the market leader and having a bit of a domino effect from there.

7:56 Scott Ingram: Amazing. Amazing. But then what is your role? So you're, you're a senior account executive. So what, what does that mean? What kind of accounts? What sort of territory? What does that look like?

8:05 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so yep, exactly. I'm a senior AE. I actually just got promoted last month. Really exciting. And I work mostly with mid-market and enterprise brands. So, I deal with VP of Marketing, marketers, they're a lot of fun. And I think one of my biggest pieces of advice to people who are starting out in their sales careers, like, kind of figure out who you'd like talking to. So, I've, you know, been in, sold to HR recruiters, I've sold to technical people, and I love marketing. I think that's the most fun, it's most similar to sales. And I think I thrive the most, you know, with something like technical, for example, like, it's more so like, I feel like if less salesy, if you will. Like, okay, like, how can I… if it doesn't work, if it doesn't fit the criteria, then that's it, kind of more so. But with like marketing, I think it's more fun to be able to change their mindset a little bit more. So I think for anyone starting out in their career, my biggest piece of advice is just choose, figure out like what you think you… what industry you'd like to be in.

9:01 Scott Ingram: So good. I mean, that's such a great callout because I think about it the same way. I, like you, have sold to many parts of the organization, but sales and marketing people are my people. Right. They're, they're the optimists. Like they will invest in things, right? They see opportunity on the future. Whereas, I mean, there's other parts of the organization where it's just like risk mitigation and ick. It's just, I don't enjoy that as much. So, I know that about myself. I know who I enjoy having conversations with the most. So, that's who I sell to. Yeah.

9:29 Jenn Zhou: I know. And then you'll thrive there. You know, I think like, you know, for example, like technical stuff or like I've taken a few computer science classes and I could do it, but I need to like really work at it versus someone else just innately gets it more so. So I don't think I would thrive in that area apples to apples with another seller in there. So I just think like, know, you know, which environment you enjoy and which one you're really like set up, you know, ready for. Love it.

9:53 Scott Ingram: This is probably the perfect spot to talk about our newest sponsor, QuotaPath. But this week, rather than telling you about what QuotaPath does, which you can just learn about yourself at top1.fm/quotapath, I want to let you know that they're hiring. They're looking for both AEs and account managers primarily here in Austin. So check out their careers page. And we've talked a lot on this show about working for great leaders. AJ Bruno, their CEO, is a guy I would absolutely work for myself. Check them out, top1.fm/quotapath. And now back to my conversation with Jenn. Love it. And then put your results in perspective for us as well.

10:37 Jenn Zhou: Mm-hmm.

10:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

10:37 Jenn Zhou: So numbers. So my quota just changed when, with the promotion last month, but before that, my quota, so to speak, was $1 million in projected ARR a quarter. So I've… not all AEs hit their quota. So I'm really proud that I've been not only able to hit the quota every quarter since I've been at Attentive, but be consistent about it at about 200% per quarter. So about $2 mil each quarter. And what's also right, like usually top performers, you know, if they're the top performer this quarter, maybe not likely next quarter. So being able to be consistent, I think, is probably what I'm most proud of.

11:09 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that consistency thing for me, I mean, it's a key thing that I look for, right? I'm not looking to interview folks who have won the SalesLoft lottery and kind of lucked into a big deal and the numbers look amazing that, that one time. It's like, no, I need to see that you've sort of done that more than once.

11:25 Jenn Zhou: Exactly.

11:26 Scott Ingram: So you haven't only been successful in this role. I know you've, you've had some good success in previous roles. What's your origin story? How did you get into sales in the first place? And maybe kind of walk us through your, your career journey a bit.

11:39 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so it's funny, I feel like everyone kind of stumbles into sales, but I kind of actually knew at a young age I wanted to pursue this. So, it was kind of like even like when I was a little girl, like going to the bakery and saying like, oh, like, you know, it's kind of late now. Like I see you haven't sold out yet. Like what if I buy like, you know, 12 for half the price? Or, you know, and they're like, okay, yeah, like I'm just gonna throw these out. So, you know, I think it's always kind of been ingrained in me. And I think that's coming from my parents who were… my dad had his own catering business. And, you know, I kind of just saw that as one day wanting to also be an entrepreneur myself. But also just fast forward a few years when I was in high school. Really lucky to be elected class president for a few years. And the school gave me so much autonomy. They're like, Jenn, like, for example, with junior prom, like, you go and do this all yourself, like, talk to the vendors. And that was so much fun negotiating. I called like a billion, you know, yacht vendors in New York and then convincing them to, you know, give us great rates. But also just our classmates, you know, junior prom was not very sexy and really low attendance for whatever reason, but I didn't think it had to be that case. So just like, you know, kind of thinking like, all right, you get the, like, let's say the cheerleaders and then, you know, the football guys will come and then the soccer and then, you know, these people, and then just like kind of selling everyone. And I just kind of saw all this as sales. And I was like, this is so much fun. So when I was looking at, you know, colleges, I knew I wanted to pursue business, ended up at Michigan, had a great 4 years there. And then when I was looking at full-time opportunities, kind of always knew I wanted to, you know, do sales, but it wasn't really a, you know, you don't even need to go to school to do sales, right? So, you know, it was kind of like, all right, like I just spent all this money, I just worked really hard, like maybe I should work at a full-time… sorry, not full-time, work at a corporate company and have something on my resume that, you know, people, a brand people recognize. So, I ended up working at Bloomberg for the first year and confirmed corporate life is not for me. Fast forward 10 months or so, it was great, but I was like, okay, like, you're telling me I need to wait another like 4 months to get a slight promotion? Like, this is not very exciting. So, I ended up, you know, quitting there and was like, okay, now I can… I'm in San Francisco now. I can kind of pursue what I always wanted to do, which was tech and software sales. So I ended up in an SDR role at a technical company called Rainforest, did really well there, and then got sought out to be the first sales hire at another startup called Jumpstart. They do early career hiring. We got backed by Sequoia, our Series A, really exciting. And then fast forward a year, ended up at Attentive. So that's kind of my sales background.

13:59 Scott Ingram: Very nice. I want to dig into some pieces of that because there's, there's a lot of people who come to this show. And in fact, somebody just reached out to me and they were looking for you know, people who had just had a lot of success right out of college, those first, you know, 5 years making it through the SDR journey. But before we go there, I mean, maybe I'll just do it a little more freeform and ask, you know, knowing all that you know now, having been through that journey, if you could start over coming out of college. So if you're coming out of college today, how would you approach it?

14:28 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I would have… see, like, I don't really have any regrets because the first thing that came to mind was like, I should have just listened to myself. That was probably like the one of only a handful of instances in my life when I was looking at full-time opportunities. Like, this just didn't feel right, but it just… like, everyone else in my school is going consulting or banking and all of that. So I just kind of… and tech sales was not as much of a thing then as it is kind of now. But just listening to yourself, and maybe I should have started, you know, doing what I wanted to do to begin with. But it's also like having that hindsight now and knowing that, okay, I tried corporate life, it wasn't for me, and now I never have to wonder about it in the future. So, you know, I think everything whether great experience or bad experience is kind of a good experience. But I think going back to your earlier question of like just really like ask yourself again, like what industry, what size of company gets you most excited? Selling to marketers, selling to technical people, you know, working at a really small company, working at a huge company. And also this is kind of a little, I guess, bit of a taboo opinion, but I really don't think… I feel like job hopping, so to speak, has such a negative connotation, which I don't really understand why. Okay, I take that back. I do understand maybe why there's that negative connotation, but I really do think that's probably one of the best things I've been able to do with my career. Just, you know, working at a really corporate company, working at a smaller guy, and then a really tiny company, and then having all those insights has really, I think, helped me a lot.

15:49 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Well, and especially early in your career too, right? Just having all of those different experiences and worked on different teams and seen different structures and not only being able to understand for yourself what you like and what you don't like, But being able to bring some of those ideas to other companies, you're like, well, okay, exactly. We actually used to do this thing at Bloomberg that was actually pretty brilliant, right?

16:09 Jenn Zhou: Exactly. You have so many other different perspectives, I think, then to bring to the table. I think that's really helped.

16:15 Scott Ingram: What about the SDR to AE transition piece? Like, how did that work for you? How do you think about having successfully navigated that part? Because I see a lot of people kind of struggling with that particular jump.

16:27 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, when I was an SDR at Rainforest, you know, I was a little frustrated. I was a top performer and every month they were like, okay, Jenn, you're gonna get promoted next month. And the next month they said again, and I'm just like, okay, it's been like 6 months now. And when I got the opportunity, when they reached out to be the first sales hired at Jumpstart, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun. And I was actually kind of very flattered because I have never had any closing experience whatsoever and the company was doing so well. So, to make that jump was tough, but I think Jason Lemkin sometimes says, you know, one of my favorite quotes from him is like, every once in a while you're given an opportunity you probably don't deserve, for lack of a better word, but, you know, take it and work really hard and give it your best shot. So, I think that's always been my mindset. I've always been kind of an underdog, even in my first SDR role when I first joined. When I was interviewing, they were like, oh, by the way, like, you know, you're probably not going to have a manager when you first join. We're actually going to doing some transitions there, is that, you know, just wanted to give you a heads up if you don't want to, you know, continue, like, totally get it. And, you know, again, going back to one of my earlier attributes, I think just having that mindset of like, you're dealt your card and you can either see obstacles and those types of, you know, unfortunate circumstances as like excuses, or you can, you know, use those situations to kind of overcome it and, you know, be stronger and be more gritty. And I think that's also like probably what attributed to, you know, me being a top performer a few months later is just like, I had to like do the hard work of setting up coffee chats, like, because no one else is gonna, you know, help me with that and all of that and having that mindset.

17:57 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it.

17:58 Jenn Zhou: Love it.

17:59 Scott Ingram: All right. Well, let's start to dig into some of the organization and process and routine stuff. And as you know, the way I always like to do this is just walk us through your day. You know, alarm goes off. What time does that happen? And give us the blow-by-blow until your head hits the pillow and what time that happens.

18:17 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. So, it's so funny. I was listening to a handful of your other podcasts and I think I'm the only one who doesn't wake up at 4 in the morning. On a really awesome day, I'd say I wake up at 6. I do Barry's Bootcamp. Not sure if you're familiar with that.

18:28 Scott Ingram: I'm not. What is that?

18:30 Jenn Zhou: It's… do you know SoulCycle?

18:31 Scott Ingram: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

18:32 Jenn Zhou: So, it's very similar, but instead of cycling, it's kind of lifting and heavy… lifting heavy weights and running. And it's done in the same kind of like fun environment with, you know, club music. It's a blast.

18:42 Scott Ingram: Maybe we…

18:43 Jenn Zhou: oh, I did it in Austin a few last months, so maybe when I'm there again we can go together. There we go.

18:47 Scott Ingram: There we go.

18:48 Jenn Zhou: But yeah, it's really just going on a run in the morning. I take my Sakara probiotics and I don't really have a crazy morning routine, tbh. And then I just get into my emails and then, you know, you're on calls all day, so I like to get the emails out of the way. And then at night, just like winding down and, you know, reading a book. And like, I really don't have a crazy routine. I just I'm pretty boring, I'd say. I don't do anything like crazy. I listen to a lot of like Tim Ferriss and Tony Robbins. I know they have like those ridiculous routines where they do an ice bath and then meditation for 10 minutes and all this. I'm not really that person, but I think just the most important part of me is just being consistent with it all and just having a routine. I think when I get… I have so much going on, like I need to do this for 10 minutes and all that, it just kind of overwhelms me and it's not sustainable. I think my biggest piece of advice for people is just having a routine that you can kind of consistently pursue.

19:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So what are kind of those key elements like in your routine and just the way that you're organizing yourself and having sort of that process piece?

19:46 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I think just create something that's personalized to you. So if it doesn't resonate, it's not going to work. So even if it's brought massive success for someone else, don't, you know, don't do it. Everyone is different. So just be really honest with yourself. I think that's my biggest piece of advice for anyone is just always like, is this working or not? You know, just being really objective about it all. Me personally, for example, I love… I get so many emails, like I like doing the snooze or like, you know, set a reminder, okay, 3 days from now or, you know, however long from now, like this email shows back up in your inbox. I know other people like to do the, you know, reminders on the calendar or Salesforce tasks or, you know, stuff like that. I think again, just figure out what you resonate with most. I create folders for everything like contracts and then you can just like do duplicates With Slack, you can do stuff like, I'll just star anything I need to get back to so I don't miss anything. You know, just, I think, figuring out what works the most for you.

20:39 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Any other, like, just kind of those little hacks, those little things that you do to stay organized and, and, you know, just stay efficient?

20:48 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. Another thing that comes to mind is, this is kind of fun. So on your phone, you can set, of course, like alarms. So what I do is, let's say it's maybe it's 12:30 right now and my next meeting, let's say, is at like 3 PM. I'll just set an alarm for like 2:58 PM, like literally just a few minutes before my next meeting, and now I can totally zone out. So I don't need to be like checking the time every, you know, half an hour or whatever, like, okay, like what time is it now? Like, so I can really just kind of completely zone out. This is kind of one of my biggest life hacks for not just work, but just in general. So like maybe you're at dinner and, you know, there's something else you have somewhere else you have to be right after. Just setting an alarm for, you know, when you need to go so you don't need to constantly be looking at your phone and you can be fully present with, you know, whoever you're at dinner with.

21:29 Scott Ingram: I love that. I love that. That is, that is so good. And, and how many times have we, you know, been in that place where you're checking the clock, checking the clock, and then you just end up in the zone, right? You're so heads down and focused, and then you look up, you're like, oh my God, I'm 5 minutes late.

21:42 Jenn Zhou: Yes, all the time.

21:44 Scott Ingram: Brutal. So are, are there any other kind of habits, routines, and anything else that, that is really just central to your success? Not even necessarily in the day job, right?

21:54 Jenn Zhou: Maybe these are additional life Yeah, I would say figure out like what's important to you. So for me, like I work so much during the week that time is very important to me. So like who I spend time with outside of work, but also just like what I'm doing. So for example, like something so like trivial like cooking and food, like I don't enjoy cooking. I did like all the grocery shopping and then the actual cooking and then the cleaning, God forbid, and all of that. And then, you know, I'm not the best cook, so usually doesn't turn out to be super yummy anyway. So for me, like I do a lot of Uber Eats and of course that adds up expense-wise, but I think it's for the extra hour or 2 hours or however much time I get back and the satisfaction in the food that I'm eating in the moment, that's worth it to me. So, I think for anyone out there just figuring out what the little things, I think it's all the little things that make you super happy and not compromising on those and compromising on other stuff too. Even let's say with finances, figure out you don't need to spend money on everything, but figure out what are those 1 or 2, 3 deal breakers that are really important to you. Like, I don't really care for the newest phone or like Ubers. I love walking, but stuff like, I don't know, yummy healthy food or, you know, a nice apartment in a good location. Like, that's what I'm willing to kind of spend more money on. And that I've realized that makes me the most happy. And, you know, I think when you're happy outside of, you know, in other areas of your life, that translates over to your success in the workplace as well.

23:15 Scott Ingram: Love that. Love that. So what about your information diet? What are you listening to, reading, and watching? And when does that typically happen?

23:23 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. So, I love information reading. Ever since I was a little girl, I've always been kind of a bookworm. I usually read nonfiction. I have a lot of favorites. Listening, I love listening to audiobooks, particularly autobiographies because they usually have it in the, you know, the authors like Matthew McConaughey. I'm reading his or listening to his Greenlights or Michelle Obama's or Bethenny Frankel, Gisele's, etc., etc. And it's just so fun to like, you know, just hear them explain their story in their own voice. That particularly with audiobooks. And then watched, so I love… so, I used to do like Monday nights bachelor night with some girlfriends and wine night, so that's kind of fun. But other than that, I usually don't actually watch too much TV or Netflix unless I'm with people. And then on my own, I actually love, love, love YouTube. That's… I just think I don't have the greatest attention span, so just like shorter videos of, you know, people who, you know, of all types of areas of, you know, food related or wellness, or Lewis Howes does this, these great podcasts with people, and Tech Lead does just talking about, you know, his very taboo thoughts on the tech industry. It's all kind of really interesting. So I love YouTube.

24:28 Scott Ingram: Good stuff. Good stuff. Let's go back to the books just for a minute though. So big biography reader. Do you have like a favorite? Like, this is the best biography I've read.

24:37 Jenn Zhou: Best biography I've read. I'm really liking Matthew McConaughey's Greenlights. Definitely again, suggest people listening to it versus reading it. And he's just… it's just so interesting to hear his thoughts on everything. The thing that stood out to me most is when he was having this conversation with his dad when he first started his acting career, and he thought his dad would get really, really upset with him, like, Dad, I want to pursue acting. And all his dad said was, you know, like, you have my green light. Like, if you're gonna do it, just don't half-ass it. I love that line where it's like, if you're gonna do anything, it doesn't matter what you're gonna do. Just be the best or strive to be the best at what you're doing.

25:14 Scott Ingram: That's awesome. All right. You've convinced me because I've enjoyed some of the other biographies that you've mentioned. And if you're enjoying it that much, then I'm going to jump in. And I screwed up the transition because I figured I have to say, all right, all right, all right. What about just on kind of the more general nonfiction book side? Do you have a favorite book or a book that's kind of impacted you the most?

25:37 Jenn Zhou: So many favorites.

25:38 Scott Ingram: You can make a list, it's okay.

25:40 Jenn Zhou: I like David Goggins' Don't Break Me, I think, of course, that's such a classic. I just recently finished Nassim Nicholas Taleb's Antifragile, if you've heard of that one. So, I think that's so interesting, right? What else? The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Hoot. I don't know if…

25:57 Scott Ingram: Yes, starts with the letter F.

26:00 Jenn Zhou: I think just they're classics for a reason, everyone reads them and I think everyone should You should definitely read those. And of course, like Chris Voss's…

26:07 Scott Ingram: Yeah, Never Split the Difference.

26:09 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I think that's like the sales bible. Everyone should read that. And it's not just with even non-salespeople. I think everyone should just read that for life. Because again, sales is like so transferable to everything.

26:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Awesome. Great list. Great list. As always, we'll have that available at top1.fm/this episode number or top1.fm/jenn-zhou. That's Jenn, 2 N's. Zhou, Z-H-O-U. Jenn, what about kind of tools and apps? Like, what is the stuff that you use all the time that makes the biggest difference in your life?

26:40 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I'm a bit of an old soul actually. I could totally not have a phone and be totally okay with that. Actually, on a similar note, just deleted my Instagram, but I do, do love TikTok. Scott, are you on TikTok?

26:51 Scott Ingram: I'm not on TikTok.

26:53 Jenn Zhou: Oh my gosh, you should definitely be on TikTok. And people are like, Jenn, like, that's so weird, especially coming from you. But I'm like, no, no, no, but you don't understand TikTok. The algorithm is ridiculous. It's so kind of like knows you a little shockingly too much. Like it's a little creepy, but it's just like kind of, and they're so quick, right? So they're like 30 seconds or so. So it's like content about anything. It's not just like girls like dancing or whatever. It's just everything like that. It's kind of super interested in you. It's, it's really catered. So highly recommend that.

27:20 Scott Ingram: Why did you delete Instagram?

27:22 Jenn Zhou: I think it's just, I mean, I think the similar reasons as to why other people delete Instagram if they do, I think it's just kind of a highlight reel. The turning point was I was at dinner with some girlfriends and then one of them was just crying about her ex-boyfriend and all of this. And then the food was delicious, so she takes a picture and she posts it on her Instagram and then later that night I see it and she looks so happy and anyone who's looking at the picture would be like, oh my gosh, this girl is thriving. And I know, I just spent like 3 hours with this girl that she was farthest from thriving and it's just like, what's the point of just looking at all of this where it's like, I feel like there's so many other examples of that. And I think it's also just going back to like, you know, trying to live the most authentic life. So, you know, doing things not because, you know, you want to, you know, show to people on, you know, your social media, but like then, you know, like, okay, I'm doing this because I genuinely, you know, want this for myself. Or, you know, I think just, or I like hanging out with those people or, you know, anyone who wants to hang out with me, like they have my number. Like, you know, knowing who the people are, you know, most in your life. And all that. I just think like, and I do have like a separate Instagram. I don't follow anyone I know. It's just like more so like people I really resonate with and I look up to. But yeah, to each their own. I know other people love Instagram, so I love TikTok. So, you know, do your own apps.

28:39 Scott Ingram: Right, right. Now, anything else in kind of the tools and apps category?

28:43 Jenn Zhou: I actually really like Reddit. And they just, I saw they raised like just recently a few days ago, the $700 million. So I think other people like Reddit too, but I feel like it's not very a popular thing for like salespeople like me, but I just it's so interesting to like read. Like, I'm in such my own little bubble with like the people I hang out with. It's just so interesting to online like hear all these other perspectives and, you know, from people that I probably don't really interact with on a daily basis. I love Reddit. And then there's also something else. I don't know if you've heard of Blind, Scott.

29:14 Scott Ingram: Don't know Blind. Blind?

29:16 Jenn Zhou: Oh, you should join Blind. Blind is kind of like Reddit, but it's more so catered for just tech. Tech. It's a little bit more skewed on the developer side, but it's great. It's just so it's like It's very like, I think, what's the word, filtered out to just like people in tech. And, you know, I think it's like a different type of audience. It's very like people talk about salaries a lot there, like, okay, how much are you making there? And it's just, it's all very interesting and very, I think, curated audience.

29:43 Scott Ingram: Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah, I've been getting more into Discords lately, mostly around some NFT stuff I've been playing with. It's fascinating. And what about on the Reddit side? Like, what are your favorite subreddits?

29:57 Jenn Zhou: Let me actually go on my phone and figure out what I'm following. Here it goes. Let's see. So I'm just going to go through my homepage. Here goes nothing. Ask Women, what seems like… and then the subreddit is what seems like a good thing in a relationship, but you've learned is really a red flag. So just like really like interesting to hear other people's perspectives there. Am I the Asshole? So it's like just people sharing like, oh, like if Just funny stuff. I don't know what else. What's something more relevant? Trader Joe's. Not relevant, but, and then there's one for startups. How do you evaluate risk when making the jump from 9 to 5 to founding a tech startup? So maybe that's a little bit more, and I'm in a sales one. It's fun. You can follow whatever, you know, you're curious about.

30:40 Scott Ingram: Yeah. That to me is the most fascinating thing about Reddit and Discord and all this stuff. I think we're getting back to this place where you can get into like really niche community types of things that are very specific to your own kind of interests and finding people like you.

30:55 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, exactly.

30:57 Scott Ingram: So switching gears a little bit, do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

31:04 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I wouldn't say I do. I would say probably the 2 that I'm most similar to what I resonate with is probably a combo of Sandler and Challenger. I think to me the most important part is just being a seller that they kind of see more so as a buddy than a salesperson. And the other part is just having them trust you and see you as an expert and someone knowledgeable, right? So like, I feel like a lot of my deals I've been able to have and keep because they kind of liked me as a person, or we're on a texting basis. So when their, their boss is like, oh, we have to go to this guy, a competitor, it's like, no, no, no, like, let me talk to Jenn and let's figure it And then having the opportunity to jump on another call with their boss and that type of thing, I think it's only because I think we've developed that relationship. And then on the flip side, right, like having, like showing that you know your stuff and be an expert and, you know, that you're not just gonna, you know, embarrass them when they, you know, go to bat for you, right? So I think what's important is also always having a bit of an opinion. So I kind of like saying something along the lines of, it's totally up to you, it's your marketing strategy, but my thoughts are XYZ. So, you know, not letting, putting them on the spot where you have to listen to me. Absolutely. But I think a lot of people appreciate you having ideas to bring to the table to begin with.

32:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, for sure. And, and, you know, I, I think the other thing that the beauty of being in kind of a specific industry like this, right? Like you're talking about text marketing all day long and I'm sure everybody you, you talk to is interested in like what other people are doing and what they're finding success with. And so being able to kind of bring those different stories and those different examples tend to be pretty relevant. I want to go a little bit deeper into this, kind of talk us through what does a typical sales process look like for you? Like, how are you managing that and these different interactions? And, you know, when do you get into the text channel, for example?

32:50 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so our sales process, it's so much fun actually. So basically the SDRs, you know, try to get the meetings, of course, and we have so much money, so much resources, we're really grateful for that. So something like one of our most popular tactics is the SDRs will offer a $250, you know, e-gift card or AirPod Pros just for taking the meeting. It's pretty wild, right? So it's like, you know, who the heck would say no to that? And people do say no, which I always kind of find surprising. And I don't want to talk to you anyway because you're kind of silly. But anyway, I digress. But yeah, so then they say yes to the meeting and they're like, oh my gosh, like a gift card just for, you know, listening to 45 minutes or so of your spiel. And I think one of the reasons why we do that, we offer such a generous incentive is because Because once you're on the jump on the call, you get their foot in the door. We have a pretty compelling pitch and we also offer a completely free 30-day trial. So it's like, okay, first I get the AirPod Pros to jump on the meeting, then you're on the meeting, it's like, okay, like sign up for this free, no obligation, no risk, 30-day free trial. So it's like, who the heck says no to that, right? And then you sign them up and then, you know, the product is pretty freaking amazing. So then they, you know, they're happy to pay us. And the cool thing about text message marketing as a channel, it's very You know, it's performance marketing, so you can see exactly how many people clicked the link from a text message, made a purchase, right? Justify the however much this costs, and it's pretty pricey, but the revenue that you're getting is just, you know, crazy ROI. So it's all there for you to see. So it's not like other vendors or other platforms, it's like, I think this is going to cost us this much, and I think it's working well, but I really have no idea. But with this, it's just so easy to kind of show that, the data, and back it up. So it's a pretty fun sales cycle.

34:29 Scott Ingram: Nice. So, and you're managing kind of each of those conversations. So you're having that initial, like, here's your AirPods, talk to me conversation. And then after they're kind of completing their 30 days, how much are you interacting with them? And what does that conversation sort of look like as you try to convert them to, okay, now you pay us money?

34:46 Jenn Zhou: So, yep, exactly. So the AE is involved every step of the way. So once they sign up for the free trial, then they get handed to the client strategist person. So we're kind of tag teaming. But of course, like, we have different incentives. Like, I don't get paid until they actually become a client. So the trial has to work really well, right, for me to get paid. So I'm very incentivized to be there every step along the way and kind of, you know, salespeople are more aggressive and they're more, you know, did you do this XYZ? So I think it's helpful for us both to be on that call. But yep. And then so we have during the free trial, we have 3 main calls. The first call is a kickoff call, show how to integrate. The second call is a UI walkthrough call. I'll show them the platform. And then the last call is just a trial performance call where we go over, we create this beautiful deck going over performance compared to benchmarks, and then I talk about all the long-term options and pricing. You know, as you might know, marketing is a very, very, probably the most competitive industry. There's, we have so many other guys doing what we do. So I think, you know, it's fairly easy or, you know, just to kind of go lower on price. But, you know, like we're kind of the premium solution, right? So you want to convey the value and And all right, you can go to that other guy and pay half, but you're not going to get the same amount of, you know, servers and the results and all of that. So I think just not wanting to compete on price in an industry that's very competitive is kind of probably the toughest part for me.

36:04 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Now, what kind of volume are you needing to do? So you said you're averaging about $2 million ARR a quarter. Like, how many transactions is that in a quarter?

36:14 Jenn Zhou: I would guess about 40 deals a quarter.

36:17 Scott Ingram: Okay, awesome. And then what, you know, just from a motivation perspective, like what drives all of this for you?

36:24 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I think just kind of knowing your why. For me, family is probably the biggest. So my parents are actually farmers in China, you know, and they came over here, but it's the epitome of the American dream story. Like not much, didn't know anyone, didn't have any money, worked really hard. My grandparents too. And they all did really well for themselves. And I think growing up, seeing them work so hard, I think that's where I got my work ethic from. But it's also part of me is like, they were always happiest when I had a great report card. And, you know, I think for me, my success is the best way I can kind of show my appreciation for people I love and everything they've, you know, kind of did so I can have more opportunities for myself. So it's kind of like in school, it's like, okay, I could study for another hour where, you know, it's like, how could I not? So I think kind of that's my why. And then on a similar note, I have, I have 2 younger sisters, so I'm the oldest, and I've always been kind of like a second mother to them. So, I think for me, like, and I, they have a love-hate relationship with me because I always nag them, are you doing this? Are you signing up for that internship? And all of that. And, you know, you can't tell, you know, you have to walk the walk. You can't just tell people like to do XYZ if you're not doing it yourself and you don't have the results to show for it. So, I think that's what also motivates me. And then I've just also kind of been a competitive person ever since I was little to begin with. But I don't really compete with other people, more so I compete with kind of what I know I'm capable of. And I think the thing I get most competitive about is just more so, I think, just work ethic. So Will Smith, one of my favorite actors, he said something along the lines of like, okay, you're… there's always gonna be someone smarter than you or better looking or, you know, come with a family with more money. But, you know, let's say we're both getting on a treadmill, like either you're getting off first or I'm gonna die, which sounds a little, you know, intense. But I think with work ethic, like I think that's probably the biggest thing. You know, this isn't like competing for the Olympics where like if you're Michael Phelps, like you're built with a certain body, like that's probably going to take you farther. But it's like, I think you can really just work to get to where you want to be.

38:18 Scott Ingram: So good. So good. There's lots of pieces that I love about that. And I don't honestly, I don't think I need to say more about it. I think it all speaks for itself. Is there something you believe that the average sales professional would think is crazy?

38:34 Jenn Zhou: I really thought about this. I don't know. I think probably the most crazy thing I think is I love no, right? Like, yes is of course great. Like, yes is, but yes is easy, right? No is like, okay, you fell short somewhere and now you can, you know, get better and you can figure out like why no is a no. And it's more satisfying when you turn those nos also to yeses. So I would think like, I kind of said this earlier too, but yes and everything working well in your favor is of course awesome, but it's also when it's not like That's where you really get to try to be better. And that's, if anything, more satisfying because I think it's just progress is what everyone kind of wants.

39:11 Scott Ingram: Okay. Say more about this because this is a fascinating sort of mindset. So, I want to lean into this. You love no. Keep going.

39:19 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. I mean, no means you fell short somewhere. For some reason, they didn't find your kind of argument compelling. They don't find the product compelling. So, now you have an opportunity to figure out, okay, why is the case and better hone you know, your skills and, you know, be better for the next call, right? Like, if everything was so easy, then what's, what's the fun in that? So I think other people get discouraged or they're like, oh, like, I just got rejected, or like, that sucks. But I think, you know, of course, like, having them sign up and pay you money is awesome. But it's also like, I think people, there's such a negative connotation with, you know, things not working in your favor. I think everything is just, everything is an experience. Everything is good.

39:59 Scott Ingram: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I got something early in my sales career that has served me really, really well. And we would talk, or our leadership would talk a lot about, you know, we typically hear no at least 2 times in every deal. And it's that, like, when you hear no, like, then you're actually getting somewhere right now. Okay, wait, what's going on? What do we have to overcome? And when you have that mindset, and you sort of know that it's coming, you can almost kind of lean into it. Like, look, it's gonna happen. You don't just like, oh, too bad, that's so sad, we walk away. No, like, now great, now we dig in, now we figure out, okay, what's… what really is, is going on? How do we actually need to, to make this work? So valuable just for me in so many different ways.

40:46 Jenn Zhou: On a similar note, when you're on a call-in, for example, if they're not asking any questions, if they're like, yeah, this is great, this is great, like I don't… that's not good.

40:54 Scott Ingram: Yeah, right. Because, yeah, because you're not… well, are you just trying to be nice?

40:59 Jenn Zhou: Yeah.

41:00 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Is this really valuable?

41:02 Jenn Zhou: Exactly. Yeah. You know, when someone's asking all of these questions or like, can you tell me about this and this? They're actually truly very interested versus someone who's like, all right, this is good. No, I don't have any. Like, are you truly interested? No, probably not.

41:15 Scott Ingram: Right, right. What about the flip side? Is there something that the typical sales professional believes that you think is crazy?

41:22 Jenn Zhou: I would say this is a little out there. I think I don't really understand why people are always like, you should be positive, you should be optimistic. Because I think when you have that mindset, it's like, okay, like everything's going to work out and then it doesn't. But it's like if you like, I'm very, I'm a long-term optimist, but I'm a short-term pessimist.

41:38 Scott Ingram: One of the best ways I've seen to achieve this perfect balance of quantity and quality with your prospecting efforts is with outreach. In fact, if you use their platform well, It's really going to allow you to do quality outbound at scale and get to the level of quantity you're looking for. And ultimately that really strong pipeline outcome we all need to be successful. Get in touch with Outreach today. Just click over to top1.fm/outreach. And now back to Jenn.

42:09 Jenn Zhou: So I think in the, in the short run, everything's gonna go to shit. And I think that, that mindset being a little paranoid, you know, I think has helped when, you know, stuff is always going to come up. So when you overprepare and you expect the worst, then because you did the homework and you did extra work to kind of set yourself up for those situations in case it happens, that's when, you know, it works in your favor. But if you're, you know, always like, okay, it's gonna be great, you know, and then you think it's gonna be great and then you don't prepare, then, you know, if something doesn't work in your favor, then, you know, it is what it is.

42:42 Scott Ingram: All right, I'm taking that one. Long-term optimist, short-term pessimist. That is so good because I think I think there's a very good, healthy degree of paranoia among those that I've talked to on this show. And you kind of have to be, right? It's like, you know, what's the thing that's going wrong? What's the thing? I mean, going back to the, you're telling me yes all the time. Okay. Now you're totally setting off my paranoia. Like, what are you not telling me?

43:05 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. This idea of where it's like, okay, don't complain. And it's also on a similar note, like why, like, I think complaining is good. Like, you know, sharing, not being like the way you go about it, like sharing, having a discussion, and sharing your perspectives. Don't be a yes person just because your manager, even, you know, higher-ups, like, I think, you know, speaking your thoughts out loud and other people, I think, will also respect you more for it when you're not just always going with the flow and, you know, just doing what other people kind of tell you to do.

43:38 Scott Ingram: Well, I think we can tie a couple ideas together here, right? Because one is what you were talking to earlier, just around the authenticity. Right. Because I'm with you. It's what's funny. I was actually kind of surprised when you said you're against this, like, you know, undying optimism type of idea, because you're, you're obviously a very positive person. Right. But, you know, just this idea of, you know, let, let's be real about this. So the authenticity on one side, but also just kind of caring on the other side, right? Like this matters to me. So I have feedback. I have ideas about you know, this particular strategy that we're trying to run internally or, or the way that this customer is trying to implement our solution. I'm like, yeah, that's totally not going to work. And I care about the results that you're going to get. So I'm going to confront you about that a little bit.

44:26 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, exactly. Long-term optimist, short-term pessimist. Yes.

44:31 Scott Ingram: So good. So good. What about, I mean, you have been through a lot. You've had this great career. Like what have been the most important decisions you've had to make or the lessons you had to learn to really kind of help you break through and get to the level that you're performing at consistently today?

44:50 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. Scott, are you familiar with the Matthew Principle?

44:53 Scott Ingram: Ooh, you're ringing a bell, but I'm not sure. And on behalf of my audience, I'm going to blame you. You should totally explain what that is. Yeah.

45:00 Jenn Zhou: So then the Matthew Principle in short is, to those who have everything, more will be given. From those who have nothing, everything will be taken. So basically, it's just saying like, when you have more, when you're on this kind of hot streak, like it's just going to get hotter. It's kind of not a linear curve, but it's exponential. And then similarly, vice versa. So to get to going back to your question, like what lessons, you know, when I first started a company, like I think overpreparing and doing what you can to, you know, get onboarded quickly, And creating abundance, so to speak. Like, for example, with my pipeline, I try to create as much of it as I possibly can. So it's not like just doing what's enough, but creating more. And, you know, then when I just closed 5 deals, I don't need this deal. So having that kind of attitude where, you know, like, it'd be great, of course, to have you, but I don't need you. I think people can… people are people and they can sense desperation. So someone who doesn't have that pipeline or really needs that deal, you know, they'll bend over backwards like, all right, let's give you an extended free trial, or let's give you really lower pricing and all of that. Like, I really want you to join. And I don't think people love that. But when you have all this abundance, you know, and it kind of just compounds, right? When you have so much success, then you don't really care for more success. And, you know, other people want to join in on that ride and they want to, you know, tag along and sign up for Attentive. And then you, it just keeps going.

46:19 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. You mentioned the prospecting that you're doing. What's your most productive kind of prospecting effort look like today?

46:25 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so I think it's quantity and quality, right? So figuring out what matters most. So for example, with all of the smaller brands, like just putting them in a sequence and having, of course, ideally be a sequence where people can't tell that it's a sequence and having it be generic enough where you're not spending a ton of time going after each one, but where they still almost feel like you individually messaged them. But then on the flip side, for your really core accounts, you can't burn them, right? So you have to be really thoughtful. You have maybe one opportunity every few months to message them. Like really put in the energy and show that you, you did the work to kind of gain their interest in that meeting.

47:05 Scott Ingram: Anything else on the prospecting front, just as you think about your strategy and making sure that you've always got that abundance of opportunity that you're doing?

47:14 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, so my mindset is always to diversify the strategy, right? So you don't always want to do just maybe all pure mass outbound. You also don't want to spend like an hour just writing like 3 personalized emails. Do both. Have the automated stuff running in the background, so getting at quantity, but also for your really core accounts, don't neglect them and just put in the time and the energy for those accounts or the opportunities you think makes the most sense. So a combo of both is probably what I would recommend everyone to kind of have their strategy be. And be efficient about it all, right? So ideally, you know, just sending mass messages, but having them come across as super personalized is the ideal.

48:02 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Great, great, great stuff. So, I mean, speaking of recommendations, we've kind of anecdotally talked about this a little bit, but let's get really explicit. And I would love to hear what advice you have for somebody that's just getting started in their sales career today.

48:20 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, and that's probably you being an SDR, I would imagine, right? So SDR, I really do think, is the toughest job in sales. But on another note, right, it's also like all you have to do is just get them on the call, they show up, and you're done, right? For me, I have to get them to sign up for the free trial and then have the free trial go really well and then have, you know, pricing calls and all of that until I finally get paid. So I think for anyone starting out in the career, like, Being an SDR is, it's a grind, but it's the foundation of it all. And I think me really putting a lot of energy and being a good SDR has paid dividends for me, you know, at my last role and in this role right now, being able to create my own pipeline when, you know, even as an AE where I'm primarily supposed to be focusing on closing business, if I don't have the amount of ops that I want from my SDR team, I can go out and knowing the skills that I've already developed, be able to do that for myself. I, you know, my own, you know, this is my book of business and I can always generate more for myself. I don't need to rely on anyone else. So I think that's always given me more confidence also in just my opportunities and knowing like, okay, maybe I'm not happy where I'm at, but I can always do more versus I think that like helpless kind of mindset, you know, that maybe other people who don't have a strong SDR foundation have.

49:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah, man, so many good callouts there because I think one, I tell people a lot that you need to look at the SDR role. It's like a weed-out class, right? It's like you want to be a doctor, but there's going to be this chemistry class that is just there to destroy your soul and to make sure you're serious, right? And I think the SDR role really is that. I think you're right, it is the hardest job in sales. But if you not just get through it, but look at it as an opportunity… and I tell people, spend a little bit more time than you think you want to in that role Because if you can really get good at that effort, the second thing that you said that I really want to double down on is not being completely reliant on other things and outside factors for your pipeline, right? I mean, I see so many people fail this way because they're… they become, oh gosh, what's the word? Entitled, right? Like, oh, well, I'm an AE now. I'm above. I don't have to prospect. I'm above that. I have people that do that for me. You are going to fail. But if you got great in that role, you now have a lifelong skill, right? You can now always be in control of your own destiny, create your own pipeline, and either, you know, keep your head above water or get yourself to the top of the leaderboard.

50:59 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, exactly. And what's that cliché quote like? Give a guy a fish and you feed him for the day. Like, teach him how to fish, you feed him for life. So it's kind of that.

51:07 Scott Ingram: Totally. Totally.

51:08 Jenn Zhou: You know, I think a lot of people pursue sales because it's very lucrative. Like SDRs, like candidly, when I was an SDR, I was making more than, you know, some of the enterprise AEs because again, like all you have to do is just get them on the call, have them show up, you're done, you get paid. You know, I think it's a good opportunity if you really grind it out to make a lot of money. And I think being an SDR really is the epitome of sales, right? Like there's the strongest correlation of you putting in the work, like it's a numbers game and then you getting your reward. So, you know, with other stuff, it's maybe like there's other political stuff or it's like more subjective. It's like with, with being an SDR, it's really just you get out what you put in.

51:45 Scott Ingram: Okay. I can't let that comment go. You were making more money as an SDR than some of the enterprise AEs. How did you set up that dynamic?

51:53 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I think when you join a company, like, you know, this is the ideal, right? Find a company that's really fast growing where they're… I think that's where they have the most generous pay structures. And they also had these ridiculous accelerators where it's like, not everyone and most of the team wasn't actually hitting quota, but if you were to hit quota, then it just like your pay just goes through the roof. So I think that's what excites me the most, companies like that where I don't really care what the majority or half the team is on, but what are those top 3 performers? What are they at? What are they making? And if I like those numbers, then that's really exciting for me.

52:28 Scott Ingram: So good. And I'll give kind of a negotiation idea here. You can always negotiate upside. It's the easiest thing to do because it's one of these scenarios where you're like, look, if I can do above and beyond what you're asking me, I want this giant reward. Well, they know they don't have to pay out that reward unless you get there.

52:46 Jenn Zhou: Everyone wins.

52:47 Scott Ingram: Exactly. Exactly. It is the… I'm telling you, this is the easiest thing to negotiate on.

52:52 Jenn Zhou: So it's funny. We actually don't have accelerators at my company right now. And that's like the thing I'm like, kind of like, why the heck? In their defense, they're like, you know, you guys get compensated really well, which we do.

53:03 Scott Ingram: So it's kind of like, well, just sell more, right? And you'll keep making, right?

53:06 Jenn Zhou: Yeah. So I mean, it goes both ways.

53:09 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

53:09 Jenn Zhou: But also, and just going back to your earlier question of like my biggest advice for people starting out in the career, I think I live by the Matthew principle. I think it's such a thing when you first start, when you onboard and you, you know, come in really hot. I think people recognize that and all the success compounds. So like I remember when I was like an SDR, when I was telling my SDR, it was Like, on a side note, you get leeway. Like, if you're really performing, like, you don't need to make 50 cold calls a day. Like, you're okay. Like, Jenn, you don't need to do that. You're already like hitting your number. But someone else who, you know, maybe you're not at your number, they're like, oh, the reason is why? Because you're not hitting, making 50 cold calls a day. Go do that or else. And then you go down this downward spiral. You know, maybe like cold calls aren't your thing. And then, you know, now you got to make more and then you're using all that time to do that. And now you can't get more up. So, it's going back to the Matthew principle, just work really hard initially and then everything just compounds and it just gets easier from there.

54:03 Scott Ingram: Really good. Really good. What about somebody that is a little bit further into their career and they're doing okay, but they haven't figured out how to get to the top of the leaderboard? What advice do you have for them?

54:12 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I think what I love most about sales, it's like, it's really, and of course, some people are more innately set up for being a salesperson than other people, but I really do think salespeople are kind of made or anyone can be better. Like you're not trying to be the Michael Phelps of, you know, the Olymp… you know, it's just like you can always be better, like if you put in the work. So what I mean is, you know, striving to be more of an expert. So listen to Gong. I love Gong, like those, you know, recordings of other AEs. Do the industry research, learn about competitors. You know, you can create a demo account on a competitor site, for example, read all the internal wikis, have a good grasp of all of the internal materials we have, all the case studies. So when some brand is like, do you have, any other subscription brands, what do they do with you guys? You already have one off the head. So, I think all of that just helps to not only have you be more of an expert so you really know your stuff to other people, but also just be more confident in, okay, I know what other people are saying, I know my homework, I know what we've been able to do in the past. And I think all of that just really helps. And then on a separate note, of course, just setting up chats with everyone. When I first started, I set up chats with everyone, I asked a billion questions. You know, and not just from the top performers, but of course, you know, they're probably the best person to speak with, but just you can learn something from everyone. And if anything, it's just confirmation, but most likely you'll get a different perspective. And it's always just a win to talk to other people. And if anything, it's just, you know, getting, you know, getting to know your colleagues a little bit more, like, you know, bonding. So I really recommend just setting up chats with, with a lot of people and then on the side in your own downtime, just putting in the work and always trying to learn and be curious and discover more on what's going on.

55:51 Scott Ingram: So 2 different callouts right here. One, as many of you know, Gong is also a sponsor of this show, and I love when these topics come up organically, right? It is such an amazing platform. And I really think of it as it's clear to me, Jenn, that you are a student of the craft. And I see this. It is probably the most consistent thing I see among the top performers, and it's why I've had so many opportunities. I just recorded another interview. It'd be a while before I'm able to release it, but with somebody who has listened to almost every episode of this show and is not only a top performer as an individual contributor, but doing it as a team player. So he's leading a team and crushing the numbers, and both the team is outperforming and he's outperforming. It's absolutely incredible. And it comes back to this idea of the ability to kind of watch game film, right? Like to really kind of study yourself and other people on your team. So that's certainly what Gong is doing. And you can learn about Gong if you go to top1.fm/gong. And I hope you'll, you'll support them, but man, will you get a ton of value out of engaging with them and that tool. And then the other thing, Jenn, you were just talking about, just, you share my philosophy around probably maybe you think of mentors the same way. Like I learned something from every conversation I have, you know, you don't necessarily have to be a top performer. I'm going to learn something from the conversation. And the more that you can have those conversations, but it's better when you can talk to people who are actually doing this stuff and who are at the top of their game. And that is all about what the Sales Success Summit is about. And Jenn, I'm super excited. We've been talking about this for a little while. You're going to be on that stage and likely, likely talking about mindset and life is sales. Like this isn't this isolated thing. So super excited to learn more from you, but everybody that comes together to be a part of that experience. So as we release this episode, it's going to be tight. We may or may not have tickets available, but you can go check. If you go to top1summit.com. That's where you'll be able to get your ticket and whether or not the tickets are sold out, thanks to our amazing sponsors, and you'll find them all linked there, we are going to make the livestream of the event available for free. And you can sign up for the livestream on that same site, top1summit.com is where you'll go to get all of that. So hopefully you'll be in Austin with us. You'll be able to see Jenn live. You'll be able to ask her questions. But if not, you can at least watch her presentation and gain some more from her wisdom and brilliance. And I can't wait to do that.

58:43 Jenn Zhou: Oh, you're so sweet, Scott. And again, it's very special what you're doing here with the summit and, you know, giving me the opportunity not only to share some things that have worked for me, but just, you know, putting everyone in a similar mindset together, you know, create that community where you can, you know, meet others like yourself who are striving to be better and, you know, versions of, you know, them as a salesperson, but as people in general. So thank you for, you know, putting this together again, Scott.

59:06 Scott Ingram: Of course, of course. And that's maybe the best transition. I always like to ask, I mean, this is really for me, I'm like, am I, am I missing anything? Is there anywhere I need to go deeper? And I always like to ask, you know, what you would want to know from the top sellers in other organizations. And maybe this time I can ask it in terms of what are you going to be asking? What are you going to be most interested in as you're interacting with other people at the summit here in Austin?

59:31 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I mean, I think I always love hearing, like, going back to me reading autobiographies, I just, I love hearing like the more personal part of why people do these things or why they want to do sales or what, you know, how they're a top performer when, you know, consistently, why is it, where does that mindset come from? Like, what's their why more so? Like, what gets you going when it's not always the most fun? And that inspires me also to like, okay, like all of these people and their stories for me to also, you know, keep going. And, you know, especially with people who came from, you know, other backgrounds where like my parents were farmers and, you know, to see what they're doing now, it's really inspiring. So I love hearing all of that type of stuff.

1:00:14 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. And it's been a while since I've shared it. So you might be interested to know my own why. I've basically boiled it down. I think of it as inspiration squared. And so, on one hand, I love to be inspired just like you. Like, I thrive on these conversations. I thrive on kind of hearing your story and what you're doing and what's working. And I'm going to take little bits and pieces like, oh, I'm going to try that. That sounds, that sounds amazing. But at the same time, my kind of internal mental game is I want to be in a position that I can be an example, that I can inspire other people by the work that I'm doing and the way that I do it, right? I had an incredible sales leader, and his whole ethos was getting it done and doing it right. And so for me, that whole doing it right piece, right? It's one thing to put up the numbers, and that's all great, but how did you do it? Like, did you do it the right way? Did you do it in a sustainable way, right? There's a big difference between, yeah, you put up the numbers, but half those customers are going to quit next year.

1:01:17 Jenn Zhou: That is bad.

1:01:18 Scott Ingram: That is no good, right? I want those customers they're going to be our best customers. They're going to grow the most. They're going to refer the most additional customers. That's how I think about playing this game.

1:01:29 Jenn Zhou: Oh, I couldn't agree with… I love that you brought that up. I think sales is fun. I feel like sales has such a negative connotation, like the sleazy car salesperson, but I think it's the best when, you know, you're generating all of this revenue for these people. But you also, like, I've turned deals down where it's like, maybe, yeah, you're right, the competitor, and for XYZ reason, it doesn't come up often, but Yeah, you should probably go over there and not give us money. And it's always the worst because, you know, it's, you know, you spent so much time and energy on that deal, but you can, you know, also go to sleep at night and know that, you know, you're really helping people and you're standing for your values. And then for the next sale, when, you know, I only sell to people that I know are really going to love and thrive off of, you know, this particular solution. So I think just keeping that fun for everyone and knowing that you develop those relationships with people that really just are succeeding with the product and knowing you're helping people, I think is really awesome.

1:02:20 Scott Ingram: Love it. Love it. Jenn, you are clearly one of us. So, can't wait to meet you in person and spend some time with you and learn from you and the rest of the people in the community. We talked about a lot of stuff. Let me first ask, is there anything that you were hoping to talk about that I just somehow didn't get to with the questions that I've asked so far?

1:02:42 Jenn Zhou: Oh my gosh, no, you did a really thorough job. This is really fun and really, I think, exhaustive on my thoughts.

1:02:49 Scott Ingram: Perfect. Exhaustive fun. I love that. I love it. Well, the last thing I always try and do is, I mean, we've talked about a lot of stuff, but I want to make this actionable. So for the person who's listening to this, what would you challenge them to do over the course of the next week or 2 to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:03:08 Jenn Zhou: Yeah, I would say like, in sales, motivation is super important, right? Going back to like knowing your why, like whether that be family or, you know, whatever it is. But I think it's, you know, not every day you're going to be motivated. And it's, I think, with also my success, I think is largely attributed where generally I'm very motivated, but there are days when I'm not, but also creating routines so you can run on autopilot and just still work and, you know, on a similar level. Even when you're not motivated. So, I think creating those habits and those routines, you know, James Clear, Atomic Habits, amazing, amazing book. I feel like those are just one of those books everyone else should also read. And then I challenge everyone to kind of just, it's nothing exciting, it's really boring, but it really is just, I think what most people, I think, need to do is just spend maybe an hour, maybe even half an hour, whatever you think is manageable. And I think that's the most important part. Just like if it's crazy, like 4 hours a day, you're not going to do it. So, something where, you know, you can consistently do each day and then just build that foundation again. So, whether that be listening to Gong recordings or looking at your outreach sequences and, you know, seeing like what language I can make this, you know, change it up to make it a little better or, you know, doing research on competitors or, you know, just anything not immediate to your day-to-day. So, not like emails and that type of thing, just to like do the extra stuff. I think that would really, you know, set you up for long-term success in the role.

1:04:30 Scott Ingram: That's a great suggestion. I'm going to extend it just, just a little bit in that because I have a bad habit of doing this where I use an app called Pocket Casts and it allows me to sort of build a queue of my episodes, right? So when I'm out, I'm out walking, I'm out, you know, in the car, it just goes from one episode to the next, to the next, to the next. Instead of doing that right now, as we wrap up this episode, I want to challenge you to hit pause on this and go look at the show notes. So go to top1.fm/this episode number or top1.fm/JennZhou. Jenn Zhao, and think about which book might you want to read, or which of the things that she said resonated the most that maybe you want to go back to and review again, or which part of the challenge do you want to take on? Like, take just that little bit of extra time to think about this and think about something you heard that you might now apply. And like many things, I'm probably talking to myself more than I am speaking to any specific person who's listening to this because I feel like I sort of messed this up because I listened to a couple of great episodes this morning of random podcasts. Just to get into a consistent routine around. So anyway, Jen, this has been again absolutely amazing. Thank you for taking time on a Saturday morning with me to do this. It has been the highlight of my week.

1:05:48 Jenn Zhou: Oh my gosh, my honor. This is so much fun. Thank you for all that you do. And yeah, I'm really excited for this summit. Perfect.

1:05:57 Scott Ingram: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community, powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.