122: A Consultative Approach to Sales with Driver Studios' Derek Sentner

0:00 Scott Ingram: This episode is brought to you thanks to the generous support of Outreach, Vidyard, and Proposify. To learn more about them and all of our sponsors who are supporting this show and this community, just click over to top1.fm/sponsors. You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest is Derek Sentner. Derek is the VP of Sales and Business Development at Driver Studios out of New York. Welcome to the show, Derek.

0:49 Derek Sentner: Thank you, thank you, Scott. Happy to be here.

0:50 Scott Ingram: I want to give a special shout out to Derek's colleague Ryan Lexer who connected us, and Ryan actually challenged me to bring some more diversity to the show. We have a lot of tech and SaaS folks on the show, and he wanted to hear a little bit more diversity and then did something about it and introduced me to Derek. So really looking forward to this conversation. And why don't we jump into this like we always do with some immediate value and talk through the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your success in sales?

1:20 Derek Sentner: Sure, sure. Yeah, no, I'm happy to be here. I know Ryan has actually mentioned the podcast a lot to me, so I'm glad that he connected us. Yeah. So I think, you know, for me, you know, I think my success and philosophy has always boiled down to, you know, a couple of things. One, you know, I've always used the word and had other people use it around me, the term scrappy, right? So always kind of, you know, having a very scrappy mindset. So I've always seen and believed that, you know, successful people are on the sales side are always constantly looking to expand the business. So, you know, having that mindset of constantly hustling and being scrappy and, you know, turning over every sort of stone possible, I think has been a key, key sort of pillar to the way that I've approached sales is just continually pushing and pushing and pushing, you know, persistence being obviously the next. And I think, you know, that, that's always key as a salesperson, right? So for good or bad, you know, unfortunately sales tends to be a little bit more of a business of no than yes. So having that persistence and being able to kind of push through and sell through the nos that's always the most… one of the most rewarding parts of sales also is really kind of when you see the fruits of those labors come through and kind of the results of that persistence. And then lastly, I think the thing I've always seen and learned is that it's, it's always easier to, you know, keep a client than get a new one, right? So being really focused on customer service, building that trust, and ultimately consistently and regularly exceeding our client expectations. So those are the 3 things that you know, we really focus on and I focus on from a sales perspective to continually try to, you know, grow our business and exceed our goals year over year.

3:00 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I love the little pun that was built in there. You said you gotta sell through the nose. I think you could take that a couple of different ways. When we think about the being scrappy, right, and turning over those stones and kind of pushing through, what are the most common examples of that in your day-to-day? Like, what does that look like?

3:15 Derek Sentner: Sure. So for us, I mean, you know, on a high level, you know, Driver Studios, our focus is really in the youth and family space. So, you know, we've got kind of 2 lines of business. One is, is a traditional sort of media sales business, and the other is more of a content creation, content studio business. So for us, that really means, A, you know, kind of going beyond obviously the obvious customer base that seems like the low-hanging fruit or sort of the 80/20 piece of the business, right? So where 80% of our revenue may come from 20% of our clients, but it's really kind of pushing beyond that and trying to find alternate you know, client pools, alternate revenue opportunities from our existing clients. And then ultimately really just constantly, constantly, this is the thing that, you know, one thing that I've always done, and it's one of the things that I've kind of talked to our team about is, you know, just be constantly learning, reading, and prospecting, right? That's to me the number one thing is, you know, there's the obvious stuff, but then there's the things that are happening every single day that are popping up in industry trades, general news, that are creating opportunity, maybe not the opportunity that, you know, will result in revenue today or tomorrow, but it allows us to start sort of mining that where, you know, 3 months, 6 months from now, that becomes a real revenue opportunity for us. So I think it's really about, again, looking deeper in what we're currently doing, but constantly looking forward and using those industry resources and general news outlets to find where our next win will come.

4:51 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it's interesting. I have a good friend and mentor of mine that talks a lot about not just the creativity in sales that I think you're talking about, but the ability to connect dots that don't appear to be connected. Right. So kind of gleaning insights from, hey, here's what's going on in the industry or in the marketplace or within my client set. And how do you get creative within that and like literally create opportunity out of nowhere? And I think that's a lot about what you're describing.

5:17 Derek Sentner: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think the word you use there is exactly the right word, which is creativity. Right? It's sort of like, I think there's the obvious use of the word, which is, you know, obviously what, you know, more talented artists than me are doing on a daily basis. But I think there also is a lot of creativity that also goes into the sales process, right? It's creating that sales narrative. And to your point, it's sort of creating how those dots connect, which is great. And I think that that's actually, you know, from a sales perspective, I think that's one of the really fun elements of what we get to do is come up with those creative narratives and really be able to think a little bit less linear sometimes. And then obviously go ahead and try to sell that story to our prospects or our clients.

6:03 Scott Ingram: Yeah, and I'm sure that shows up a lot more for you just in the space you're in, right? It's not you've got a set product. It's, it's the way what you're selling. And why don't we contextualize that now? Why don't we talk a little bit more about what is Driver Studios? I mean, you give us some hints. And also just talk about your role and contextualize that as well.

6:22 Derek Sentner: Yeah, sure. So yeah, from an overall Driver Studios perspective, I think that to your point, I mean, a lot of the creativity that comes through what we do here largely originates on the content studio side of our business. So on that side of our business, we have an award-winning digital content studio here that's produced original IP that's gone on to deliver, you know, millions and millions of eyeballs and merchandising licensing. Lines against to really being a go-to for brands in the youth and family space that want to understand and be able to create largely short-form content, again, for a youth and family audience on digital platforms, mainly being YouTube, obviously. So lots of creativity there, obviously, from just a what are we making, how are we making it, what is the right way to be approaching those audiences. And then ultimately, from a sales perspective, obviously constantly being, you know, forward-thinking in pitching the opportunity to these brands and the types of creative solutions that we can bring them. So, so that's the content studio side. And again, lots of creativity there, not only from a content perspective, a distribution perspective, but also an execution perspective. The media side of our business, the traditional quote unquote, you know, ad sales, ad network side, Similarly, what we're doing there is, again, focused on a youth and family market and being able to sell ad inventory placement across all screens where kids are consuming content, right? So we work very closely with Ryan and his team when it comes to the world of mobile advertising. You know, OTT connected TV, as we all know, is a huge opportunity and growth area, not only in the co-viewing family space, but obviously, you know, adults as well. So that's a big place for us. And then ultimately helping brands able to execute on YouTube in a safe way as possible, because we know obviously kids are there in tremendous volume, but we also know that there are some real challenges for brands to be able to feel good about being on that platform. So that's what we're doing overall from Driver's perspective. My role within the company is first and foremost, you know, revenue-focused, so making sure that we are maximizing our revenue Largely from a brand relationship standpoint. So across those 2 sort of revenue streams I mentioned, the ad sales and the content studio business, and then also focused on business development. So are there strategic partnerships like the one that we have with Ryan and his colleagues at Kiddos, as well as, as we look to expand our footprint as a content creation company beyond the world of YouTube? We look forward to things like How do you bring content IP to broadcasters, Nickelodeon's linear, you know, linear partners in the world, to obviously the streamers? So obviously, you know, Netflix, HBO Max, Peacock, all of these guys are now in the original IP business. And certainly that's a place that we think there's a lot of opportunity. So, so that's kind of what I'm focused on is maintaining and growing our quote unquote, you know, day-to-day business, which is the brand ad revenue side. And then also, you know, at the same time, sort of building the plane as we fly it, so to speak, and looking at how we continue to push IP and grow the content piece of our business beyond the existing digital platforms that they're on today.

9:48 Scott Ingram: Got it. And I would guess that your clients are sort of a mix of brands and agencies. Is that fair?

9:53 Derek Sentner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, that's exactly right. I mean, in the same way that we've kind of got these 2 sort of, you know, connected but yet distinct revenue streams within our company. We also have, you know, a similar bifurcation, I guess, of clients, right? So a lot of the traditional media planning and buying, as you referenced, goes through that, you know, that agency-client relationship, right? So the client has hired, you know, any of the name brand agencies out in the, out in the world today. And so we're dealing with those guys on a day-to-day basis. That's a unique process unto itself. And then, but a lot of the more custom creative content-driven relationships that we have in the business that we're doing now, that tends to be done directly with the client where an agency is not involved. Gotcha.

10:43 Scott Ingram: And then how are you measured? I mean, what do your results look like? What does it take from a revenue perspective to be number one at Driver Studios?

10:52 Derek Sentner: Yeah. So, I mean, we've, you know, we've grown the business substantially over the last few years. I would say without, you know, giving any the exact numbers. And we saw, you know, last year in 2019, we saw close to, you know, 85% revenue growth year over year. This year, obviously, is, you know, we haven't grown at the same clip, but we're still seeing substantial growth. You know, for us and for myself, you know, the way I measure our success is twofold. One, obviously, year over year revenue growth, right? Are we just growing the bottom line number or the top line number for that matter? Right? So just gross revenue, how are we doing there? Secondly, obviously at the end of the day, you know, we want to grow the bottom line, right? So how are we doing from a just a margins perspective? How are we doing ultimately bringing more cash into the business? We've got expenses obviously that go out against the cash that comes in, the advertising dollars that come in, but how are we doing in maximizing that bottom line revenue? Quite honestly, that's probably my number one key indicator at the end of the day is, you know, are we growing the cash to the company on a year-over-year basis? And then lastly, it's just, are we growing our customer base, right? So at the end of the day, there is, as I referenced earlier, and I think is probably the same in quite honestly every industry… I've certainly seen it in various media industries I've been in… is that it is largely an 80/20 business, right? So 80% of the revenue comes from 20% of your client base, but You know, ultimately every year we want to be, A, we want to be focused on client retention, right? So we want to make sure that, you know, not only are we keeping the clients that we have, but we're finding ways to grow that business. And then B, you know, are we picking up market share from a client perspective when it comes to the competitive set that we see in the market, right? So we know who our competitors are, we're looking at them, we're seeing who, who you know, who they're working with. We want to make sure obviously, you know, we're capturing as much if not more of that opportunity in the marketplace. So those are the things that we look at from a success standpoint is like top line gross, bottom line net cash of the business. And then, you know, lastly, you know, how are we doing from a market coverage, market share perspective when it comes to available clients in the market?

13:13 Scott Ingram: Gotcha. Now you've been at this for a while, both with Driver, you've got quite a bit of longevity, which I think we'll come back to, and just time in the industry. But how did this all start? What's the origin story? How did you get into sales in the first place?

13:25 Derek Sentner: I think probably like a lot of people somewhat, you know, backwards. So, you know, if I took it back to the start, I was a, you know, English major in college, really enjoyed writing, did a summer internship at a magazine, at Entrepreneur Magazine, when I was a junior in college. And in my head at the time, it was like I just wanted to be a writer. It's like I wanted to write. And then somehow I was like, oh, I want to write for a magazine. And obviously that comes, you graduate and you start going out there and you start trying to find a job and you go to… you start going on interviews, you start going to headhunters and you tell them kind of what you want to do and they start kind of sending you into these places. And I went to a few. You know, I wasn't having much luck. And then eventually I went to a company at the time, which was really kind of a leader in the industry, and it still exists, but in a slightly different form, this company called Ziff Davis. And, you know, they had said, look, there's no writing opportunities or no editorial opportunities here. However, you know, there's an opportunity opening at the moment as a sales assistant. Is that something that interests you? So, you know, for me it was, you know, it was an opportunity to kind of get in the door. And in my head it was kind of like, well, look, I'll just do this. For now. And it's, again, I'm sort of in the door. And then, you know, in the, in the coming, you know, months, years, whatever it is, no problem. I'll just sort of set, you know, transition over to the editorial side and I'll kind of be back on this vision that I had for myself. Yada, yada, yada. It just sort of, things kind of spiraled from there. I, you know, I worked with a couple of guys that were great in the New York office at Ziff. As it turned out, within the first probably 6 months I was there, one of them left, you know, more was put on my plate. And as time went by, I was just getting more and more responsibility, was delivering obviously, you know, strong results, good performance, and given the opportunity to continue to grow there. So that's really where I started. I mean, it was at Ziff Davis for a number of years and spent a number of years after that in that same market. So Ziff was an IT B2B business tech publisher, right? So magazines like PC Magazine and, you know, others in that space at the time. And, you know, went on to another big publisher in the IT publishing space, company called IDG, and then eventually started to segue over to the consumer side. Before Driver, I ran the consumer business for Billboard, which was terrific, uh, you know, 6+ years in the consumer music side of the business. Before coming to Driver. And as you said, you know, I've been here now for a number of years as well.

16:05 Scott Ingram: When did it click for you, right? So was there a point that you decided, okay, yeah, you know what, maybe the writing thing just isn't the path? And at what point did you sort of realize, wait a minute, I guess I'm a sales professional, like this is what I'm going to do?

16:17 Derek Sentner: You know, I think there's probably… it's funny, I can trace it back to, you know, actually one day specifically in my head. I'm not sure this is the day that says I'm a sales professional, but it's certainly, I think, the day that I, I look back and say, well, maybe this is a better path or a more enjoyable path. I remember, again, probably was in the first, you know, 6 months I was at Ziff, worked with these 2 great guys. And this was in, I guess this was probably '99, Yeah, maybe '99. And, you know, business was really good at that point, you know, for Ziff Davis in particular. And I remember one afternoon going to lunch at steakhouse though on Park Avenue, Angelo Maxi's on Park Avenue, just north of Union Square, and sitting in the back room with these 2 gentlemen having beers and eating steak and lobster. At 2 in the afternoon and thinking to myself, well, you know, this isn't so bad. Uh, so that's kind of it. I mean, as strange as it is, you sort of like look back and say, okay, well, you know, I see that there's this, you know, this opportunity here, not just to kind of blow expense accounts, but to, you know, to have it be in a more social environment, right? The opportunity to… I mean, you know, I've, I think in my life just whatever it was, I've always sort of, you know, leaned towards kind of, I've always had that sort of sales part of my acumen, I think. But then I saw kind of like, this was never a business I even knew existed, right? Which is the idea of like selling advertising and, and kind of the relationship side of that and the social side of it. I kind of look back on that day and say, well, this seems like a ton of fun. And then, you know, then, you know, you sort of marry that with starting to have some success and actually doing it, right? So the feeling of winning that, sort of satisfaction of closing the deal. You know, you start putting those things together, you know, and again, you start seeing sort of some upward mobility for yourself professionally, financially, and you start thinking to yourself, well, you know, this is going to be a lot more fun than, you know, writing for a magazine, you know. And again, sort of things just keep rolling and moving, and you find yourself, or at least I found myself years later, kind of, you know, having success and sticking with it.

18:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So, I mean, you've had this You know, 20-plus-year sales career, had a lot of success along the way. Knowing all that you know now, I mean, if you could go back to the beginning and start over, is there anything that you would have done differently from a career perspective?

18:52 Derek Sentner: You know, I've told other people this, that, you know, I think if I knew, yeah, like if I knew what I know now, right? Meaning like I wanted, I knew that this was the business the way it is. And, and I knew like, hey, look, you know, I think that there's a career path that you can have that's personally, you know, rewarding and, you know, financially rewarding. And, you know, you can have some fun along the way and it's, it's in the digital media business. I would have done it differently in the sense that I probably would have taken a little bit more of a sort of an agency-first approach. And I've seen this with other people, you know, just friends of mine that I know who spent the first part of their career on the other side, so to speak. Right. So working at agencies, you know, understanding that side of the business, you know, building contacts and relationships from a client agency perspective on that side of the fence and then have transitioned into the sales side. And not to say that, you know, it ultimately made a huge difference in whether I, you know, had that experience or not. But again, if somebody was to ask me today, look, you know, 10 years from now, I want to be successful on the sales side of this industry. What's my first step? You know, my recommendation to them would be go put a few years in on the agency side, understand that side, understand the buy side, you know, and I think that'll… and then make the transition to the sales side. That would be, I think, if I could do it over again, or if somebody was to come and ask me for that advice, I think that's probably what I would suggest.

20:24 Scott Ingram: And is that more because of it gives you the ability to understand the role and their day-to-day, and it's easier to kind of empathize and sell to them later? Or is it more about the connections and the network that you're able to build from that position?

20:41 Derek Sentner: I think it's a little bit of both. I think that there's definitely something to say for… look, it's just good to know. It's good to know what a buyer is looking for, right? So, you know, what are the things that are going to make that sale easier? What does that buyer need to be able to ultimately sell, you know, sell it through to their client and/or be able to kind of feel confident about, you know, the opportunity? So there's a piece of that for sure. But I do think, you know, on top of that, and probably even more important than that, is the network opportunity, the relationship opportunity that comes with, you know, sort of being on the same side as, you know, the people you will ultimately be hopefully selling to, right? So it's one thing to say, hey, look, you know, as a salesperson and as a buyer, you have a particular relationship. And certainly those things are built on trust and performance and all kinds of other things, but it's a different relationship than somebody you're kind of in the trenches with, so to speak, if you're on the same team. So I think that that again would be my advice and would be the thing that I kind of look back say, okay, you know, it wasn't ultimately imperative for me and it wasn't something that, you know, was a huge difference maker. But, you know, if I was to do this over again and knew this is where I wanted to be, I would start with, you know, a few years and really understanding what's happening on the buy side, make those relationships, understand what agencies and clients are really looking for, and then use that information and those relationships and that, you know, that arsenal of, you know, insights to bring over to the sales side.

22:22 Scott Ingram: Yeah. I want to talk about longevity for a minute because you've been at Driver for, you know, coming up on 10 years. And, you know, particularly in the technology space where I interview a lot of folks, the tenure is much shorter, you know, just across the spectrum. I think it's pretty typical that people are changing roles on average, maybe every 18 to 24 months. I mean, there's a lot of movement. How much of your success do you attribute to just kind of the time in the saddle and the work that you've put in there at the same company, in the same role, working with the same clients and that type of thing.

22:57 Derek Sentner: Yeah, I mean, I think honestly, even, you know, your sort of timeline, you know, with the folks on the technology side, it's honestly not terribly different. I think that I'm certainly more the exception than the norm. For me, I've kind of always just taken the approach of trying to find something that I enjoy doing and really trying to stick with it and build. So I mean, even, you know, even before my time here, you know, I spent 6 years at, you know, at Billboard. So, you know, I've always kind of just been the kind of person who really looks and tries to identify an opportunity that I can be excited about and stick with for a while. And I do think, you know, part of the success does come to your point in longevity and really understanding the business and ultimately you know, from a client perspective, being, you know, kind of having that foundation and that trust and being there for a while and, you know, bringing, you know, I would say a degree of stability. I think for us here, this one was a little different because, you know, I was basically the first person that was hired outside of the, you know, the founders of the company from a business perspective. So when I came in here, this was a zero revenue business, right? So, you know, a lot of the early couple of years was really about figuring out what the business was. You know, when I first came on, this was around the time when Google had invested $100 million in what was at the time called, you know, YouTube Originals. And there was a big push around higher quality, brand safe, you know, programming that they were trying to build onto the platform. And Driver's background was and is in the commercial production side, so they were really kind of looking to push into short-form content. I had spent, again, a number of years at Billboard, really kind of starting to push towards the end into the idea of branded content. That's kind of how the segue happened. But my point being is the first couple years here, as a, you know, as other people at startups probably could relate to, was quite honestly a lot of figuring it out and pivoting. And then, you know, once we were able to do that and identify kind of where we really thought the business could grow, you know, then it was sort of obviously at that point kind of, you know, putting in the work and starting to build the business as it is today. But so, you know, it's interesting. I mean, although it's been, like you said, 9, 10 years, in some ways it actually feels, you know, almost like it seemed like the first couple of years were almost like a different company because we, you know, what we were doing at the time was honestly, you know, quite different than what we're doing now. And I think that one of the things I really enjoyed and did keep it fresh for me was the idea that there was this sort of pioneering and trying to sort of stake out a position for the company. And then once we did, obviously going and taking a company from zero revenue to really having, you know, a leading business in this youth and family space.

25:57 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, so given that you're in the, the youth and family space and in media, let's have some story time. What's… I'd love to know, like, in the whole of your career, there's probably a deal that just stands out for some reason, right? Maybe it was just some epic win, maybe, maybe it went down in flames. Tell us the story of that deal.

26:17 Derek Sentner: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that there's probably, you know, a number of them over time, but You know, funny enough, I think the one that stands out for me is not one that we won actually, but one that we lost. It always just sort of, you know, sticks out as a, I think, a little bit of a reminder that, you know, sometimes these things are never done till they're done. And I think that that's part of my philosophy from a sales perspective is really sort of pushing through. And this is kind of what I talk to my colleagues about. It's like, you know, just, you know, pushing right through to the end and even sometimes, you know, even further than you think you need to go to kind of get these deals done. So this was, you know, a handful of years now going back at Billboard. You know, we were working on a number of projects there at the time, and one of them was bringing back the multiplatform Billboard Music Awards. And, you know, we had worked, you know, tirelessly for a number of months with a client in the telecom space and, you know, had created a multi-million dollar cross-platform initiative that we thought we had kind of sold through at every possible angle from the agency to the client. And we're basically at the finish line and, you know, had started to put all of the, all the processes in place and, you know, it was sort of just waiting on that final signature. And of course, you know, at the last minute, you kind of get the fly in the ointment and things, things don't go according to plan and the deal falls apart. So for us, it was, it was painful. Obviously, it put a wrench in a lot of the things that we had been working on at the time and we had to pivot. And ultimately, we were able to kind of replace that revenue. But, you know, it's the kind of thing that it's always stuck with me that I think, and it's probably created for me a bit of a pessimistic approach when it comes to things like forecasting and pipelining and, and sort of, you know, revenue projections is as good as things can feel. And I think this goes back to like the persistence and the scrappiness. It's like, you just have to… nothing's done until it's done. And you really have to kind of continue to push. And I think at the end of the day, those things tend to overdeliver, right? So like, I think if you have that mentality, more often than not, things won't fall out, so to speak, but they'll actually tip the other way because you've just put… you've kind of pushed as hard as you could and you've kind of covered all of your angles and you've crossed all your T's and dotted your I's and kind of shored up all of the loose ends. So that's the story that I think for me always sort of sticks out is kind of being like, okay, look, you know, you think you're there, but until you're there, it's not done until it's done. And having that experience and having that sort of carry through to a sales philosophy that, you know, that I kind of hold dear today is, is paid off positively, you know, more than negatively over the years.

29:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah, so it sounds like it's really just about having that healthy level of paranoia all the way through, right?

29:24 Derek Sentner: I think that's right. I think for me, like, in other, you know, kind of friends, it's like, I think that's a good trait and probably a constant trait with most salespeople. Is that paranoia, right? It's like, because we've all been burned enough times to know. Yeah, right. You know, it's like, I haven't… you know, it's like a little too quiet, right? It's like, you know, you know, in this business at least, and I'm sure it's the same in other sales industries, it's sort of like, you know, you know that if you haven't heard from somebody or had a conversation about a deal or, you know, whatever it is that, you know, after a certain amount of time, it could be You know, it could be a couple of days, it could be a week, it could be 2 weeks. If, you know, you start getting like, there's sort of just a point where you're like, yeah, this doesn't feel right. And I think, you know, most salespeople kind of have that innate sort of gut feeling that they can tell when, to your point, sort of that paranoia starts kicking in.

30:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah. Pay attention to the paranoia. This seems like a really good spot to talk about outreach. One of my all-time favorite sales leaders would frequently tell us that pipeline saves lives. This is just that type of scenario where you think you've got a great deal in the bag and the wheels come off the bus. But if you consistently work to have a strong pipeline, you can soften those blows. And that's what Outreach is all about. Outreach is the best platform to support your pipeline generation process consistently over time so that you and your team are always in a position to outperform. You can learn more about Outreach at top1.fm/outreach. Now, let's get back to Derek and talk a bit more about paranoia. How do you most commonly react to that? Right? So when your spidey sense starts to tingle and you're like, uh-oh, this isn't feeling right, what do you do?

31:11 Derek Sentner: So it's a good question. I mean, I think that, you know, what I try to do, and I talk about this with, you know, the team here, is I'm a firm believer of always having or finding as many ways on a constant basis to be in contact with your clients, either during the sales process, during this sort of evaluation process, or quite honestly, you know, even before in those downtimes. So for me, like when I'm feeling that kind of like, you know, that spidey sense, so to speak, to your point is, A, it's what can I provide that doesn't feel, you know, you don't want to be that sort of heavy-handed nagging salesperson that's just sort of, you know, unpleasant to work with, for lack of a better way of saying it, right? So, you know, you can't be kind of the kid who's sort of pulling on their parents' coat saying, you know, what's going on, what's going on, what's going on, right? So for me, it's always been about, okay, how can I be in touch with these people in a way that's providing value and moving our conversation forward, right? So is it additional research? That I think will support our position or what we're trying to put out into the market with them? Is it competitive data, right? So, hey, look, here's just a reminder as to sort of what our unique value proposition is versus the competitive set, if we feel like that's our challenge, right? If we feel like, hey, look, the issue is, is that they've been working with our competitor for a number of years and we're trying to transition that business or capture some of that business back over here. Right? So, so it's, you know, hey, look, here are the pieces of information, research, competitive data, marketplace information, news as to where kind of, hey, look, we're trying to direct you into this sort of space and here's success that other brands that you're competing with are having in that space. It's any and all of that, right? It's like, what can I go back to them to reignite the conversation in a way that supports our value as a partner and supports the direction that we want to take the business. So that's kind of the way that I think about it is like, okay, what are the additive ways that we can move the conversation forward without it just being, so to speak, about, you know, about closing the deal, if that makes sense?

33:30 Scott Ingram: Yeah, totally. I think it really goes back to that core idea we were on earlier around the creativity. It's not just the creativity in the deal and looking for other opportunities. It's just the creativity and how do I keep the conversation alive? Because I can't let this get cold.

33:44 Derek Sentner: Yep. That's exactly right. I mean, it is so much, I think you're right. I mean, I think that it is this sort of creative way of thinking of like, yeah, how can I creatively get this person re-engaged? And I think that that's probably kind of the thread that goes through the entire sales process, right? It's how do I creatively get this person engaged to just, A, meet with me, hear me out, listen to what I have to say. Learn more about what, you know, Driver Studios or any other company can offer. And I think that creativity does carry through all the way to the end of, you know, creating the right type of, you know, deal or proposal structure to, again, you know, creatively thinking about how to continue that conversation right through to kind of close. So I think creativity is a great word.

34:33 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. So you've had this long, storied career in your space. What are you most proud of?

34:40 Derek Sentner: You know, I think what I'm most proud of is the variety of work that I've been able to do and the fact that I've been able to be successful and, you know, in a variety of different settings. And what I mean by variety is everything. Like, if I look back at kind of where I started, you know, it was very sort of, you know, obviously sort of at the time, very print-focused but very industry-specific in that it was B2B technology publishing, which was a very obviously a very specific thing, specific type of clients, right? That, you know, the Intels, the HPs, the IBMs of the world with a very specific type of initiative and particular type of audience and certainly a particular type of industry that I had to learn about. And those were big established brands, market-leading brands in their space. And then having, you know, a lot of success at Billboard as well, which was a big established brand that we basically had to reinvent, right? So we took that from being an industry resource from a digital perspective to creating a very, very successful and, you know, highly trafficked digital consumer platform. And those were great. And those were big, you know, big brands that, you know, quite honestly, at the time and continue to still be the kind of places where you could pick up a phone, shoot an email, and somebody, you know, somebody says, oh, this person's from Billboard, this person's from PC Magazine, whatever it may be, and you're going to get in the door and have that conversation just based on the brand alone, right? But then also then being able to, you know, come to Driver and literally build a business from, again, you know, zero revenue to where we are today. And that's an entirely different challenge, right? That's not picking up the phone and saying, hey, this is, you know, some… you know, you're calling from Driver Studios. Because at the end of the day, at that point, nobody had ever heard of us, right? So yes, of course you're able to leverage the relationships you have over the years, but you're building a business from the ground up. So for me, I think the thing that really, if I look back, I feel really good about is that I've been able to be successful, been able to do this in a variety of different environments, everything from the long-established corporate brands that kind of can open the door before you even get there to, you know, startups that nobody's ever heard of before and building those to a place where now, you know, we've got brand recognition, we've got name recognition that does help us open the door.

37:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's interesting because those are 2 very different things. I mean, I've certainly watched people be surprised by that because they started out working for a, you know, leading brand, very high name recognition. People are like, oh yeah, of course we'll take a meeting with XYZ company. And then they switch over to a startup that has zero brand name. It's a little different.

37:37 Derek Sentner: Yeah, it's a little different. And it's, you know, I think it also is like, it's just different from… different obviously from just the point which we're talking about is, you know, the access. It's also just very different from a day-to-day you know, just a day-to-day workflow, right? You know, working for big companies, you know, in sales roles or sales leadership roles is very different than working for a startup where you don't have all these layers of support. You don't have all these layers of, you know, roles that take pieces of the puzzle. It's a much more entrepreneurial, obviously, but just a much more sort of, you know, roll up your sleeves and get to it type situation, which which, you know, I think is… for me, it's been great. I've enjoyed it, and I really have appreciated the variety and the differences between the two. But, you know, may not be for everybody.

38:27 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. What's the hardest part? What do you struggle with the most?

38:31 Derek Sentner: I think just struggle with, at the end of the day, being able to… you know, I would say we probably struggle the most with being able to kind of continue to just grow the brand name of the company. I think that, you know, for us, we've got a great footprint within our market. I think that the things that we're really struggling with or hoping to accomplish… I shouldn't even say struggling with… is how do we then… now, how do we now take the success that we've had so far and amplify that in a way that can be real difference makers? And so for For us, as a company, where we see the real trigger point, meaning where we can go from the real success we're having now to exponential growth, is just from an IP creation and sale of IP. As I alluded to earlier, one of the things that we're really focused on right now is creating original IP that we can bring, in essence, sell to the broadcasters, the streamers of the world. So that's kind of where we're, you know, it's a lot of hurry up and wait. And I think that's the thing that I probably struggle with the most is, you know, just being a little impatient, right? You want to move a lot faster sometimes than everybody else can. And as a small business, you can move faster, right? So, you know, as a small company, you know, we've got, you know, the ability to really pivot, move quickly, put things into place and be ready to go fast. But, you know, when you're dealing with partners and companies you want to have more strategic relationships with that, you know, are much larger corporations, not everybody's ready to move as fast as you are. So that's, that's probably the thing I struggle with is just managing my own patience of the speed at which we want to move and the speed at which sometimes just, you know, the reality it moves at.

40:26 Scott Ingram: Yeah. What is your typical sales cycle? How long is that?

40:30 Derek Sentner: Yeah, so for us from a sales perspective, like on the media side, it's typically… I would say it's typically 3 to 6 months. You know, I mean, a lot of the way that our business gets done from a media perspective is most of it is quarterly, you know. So I think it's probably 3 to 6 months. Some of it moves closer to 3 months, some of it can move 6 months sometimes, you know, obviously. And then there's certainly cases where we've got clients that You know, it's taken us, you know, 9 months or a year to finally get them to work with us, right? And I think that that is a challenge, but it's also kind of really one of the more satisfying pieces of our business, right? Where you identify, you know, a client that, you know, you feel there's absolutely no reason that these guys should not be buying from us, right? You're like, you know, we can check every single box. We know what they're doing. Like, there's absolutely no reason that we're not getting this business. You know, but they've got a reason, you know, whether it's the agency's reason or the client's reason. So you've got to start to sell through that, right? And that, that can take time, right? That can be a lot of just sort of the… that's just the persistence, right? Yeah, that's just constantly being willing to do the things we talked about, whether that's, you know, finding the creative reasons to be in touch with the agency or client, sharing, you know, ideas on what you could do for them. Sharing examples of maybe what you're doing for their competitors. And those things can take time, but I would say it's a great feeling and it's a really satisfying feeling when, you know, after whatever it's been, 9 months, a year of kind of getting those nos to finally, you know, getting a yes is really kind of a, you know, one of the fun parts of what we do is kind of breaking through and kind of being able to feel really good that, you know, okay, look, we're, you know, this This took work, but it's, it's, you know, it's not meant to be easy. And now, now the objective is, is like, okay, we've got them. How do we grow the business? How do we retain the business? And how do we now become a core partner of this brand?

42:29 Scott Ingram: Yeah, this is a really good place to talk about Vidyard because Vidyard is one of my favorite ways to be creative, to stay top of mind and be polite, professional, and persistent. With Vidyard's free Chrome plugin, which you can get for yourself at top1.fm/vidyard, You can quickly record a short video for your client sharing a new idea or even showing them a resource or something you found that could be relevant for them. It's just that little bit of extra effort and impact that goes way beyond an undifferentiated text email or heaven forbid, a message where you're just checking in. Try it today. top1.fm/vidyard. Now let's get back to Derek. One of my favorite things to do is just kind of dissect the way that folks structure their days and their, and their lives really, and just kind of go about the day-to-day business. And the way that I usually like to start that is if you were to walk me through, not if, I'd like you to walk me through a typical day in the life, if there is such a thing, right? So the alarm clock goes off. What time did that happen? And I literally want the blow-by-blow until your head hits the pillow.

43:39 Derek Sentner: Okay. So, you know, I will say my day is, my hours have slid back a little bit. Since March for sure. But, you know, I would say just because I'm not commuting anymore, right? I used to spend… well, I used to, you know, spend 20, 30 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes or so in the morning getting my son to school, which I don't have to do anymore. You know, it's not a far walk, but he's now only there a couple of days a week. But prior to the, you know, kind of the work-from-home situation, you know, my alarm clock, I would say, would go off about 5:30, and I would go to the gym. I'd get to the gym around 6. I'd get home around 7. Then I'd spend the next hour or so, you know, eating breakfast, you know, getting my… helping, you know, helping get the kids ready, pack lunches, things like that, get everyone kind of out the door. And I would be on the subway into the city. I live in Brooklyn, so subway into Manhattan. About, you know, about 8:15, which will put me in the office at around 9, right? So now it's similar to that, but, you know, again, I'm, you know, everything's pushed back a little bit. School's a little bit more remote, but get up, get some sort of workout in, you know, go for a run, etc., you know, and be on, on my computer with a cup of coffee by, you know, 9 o'clock. And then, you know, typically what I'll do in the first You know, part of my day is I'll just try to read, you know, try to sort of, you know, some of that prospecting stuff we talked about, right? So, you know, industry, you know, I get some sort of general kind of newsletters that will pop. So I'll read those, you know, I'll reference and look at some of the industry for us, some of the industry websites. So obviously there's, you know, the bigger ones like the, you know, the AdWeeks and the AdAges. In our particular sort of youth and family space, there's a trade magazine called Kidscreen. So I'll certainly, you know, look to see what the latest is there. They've got, you know, you know, new stories every day. So I'll kind of see what's going on there. And then, you know, honestly, I find LinkedIn to be great because, you know, typically things will surface there that I would not have found on my own, right? So people kind of sharing various stories or posting articles that are typically kind of from maybe sort of more sort of tangential sources that I may not be searching out on my own. So I'll spend the first, like I said, spend the first couple hours of the morning kind of just doing that. And then I'll spend the majority of the mid part of my day really just executing, right? So whether that's prospecting, whether that's managing, you know, business that's active, that has immediate needs, whether that's, you know, creating, you know, working with our team here to create various proposals and plans that we want to put out into the market. I mean, we've got a team here obviously that's really skilled at doing that. So we're working closely with the designers, the developers, the creatives to, you know, think about proactively ideas that we can pitch out and/or responding to, you know, RFPs we have coming in on a daily basis. And then, you know, the final, you know, hour or 2 of my workday, at least, you know, I'm kind of preparing myself for the next day, right? So making sure that, A, I've kind of closed off any loose ends that needed to be done for the current day, but I'll also start sort of thinking about the next day, right? So one of the things I tend to do for myself is if I know that there is a person or people that I've kind of got listed on my calendar for the next day that I intend to follow up with, what I'll do is I'll actually start to type up those emails and I'll save them to my drafts. So I like to come in the next day and be able to kind of look at my, my drafted emails and just kind of be like, okay, great, you know, here are the thoughts I already had for these people. Here are the key points that we need to be in touch with them about. Is that still right? Am I still thinking about it the right way? I think I tend to be a little bit sharper in the morning, so I'll kind of say, okay, look, this is what I wrote at the end of the day yesterday. Is that still the tone I want to take? Is that still the point I want to make? So I'll get all that done at the end of the day so I can again come back fresh in the morning and have that kind of queued up. And then the, you know, the evening hours, quite honestly for me is, you know, unfortunately, you know, I'm still connected to my phone and sort of probably more so for myself than anybody else, kind of constantly sort of just kind of checking in and making sure that nothing has popped up. One of the things for us is that because we do have partners like Ryan and his team that are based outside the US, things that may either come out late in the evening, or a lot of times when I get up at, you know, 5:30 in the morning, 6 in the morning, I'll have emails I need to respond to right away because they've come in overnight. But the evening hours, quite honestly, I just try to, I try to spend as much of it with my kids and my wife and just kind of, kind of enjoy some downtime. Obviously now everybody's home a lot, so that's a lot easier to do. But as I'm sure, as I'm sure you can relate to, because you're home, And working from home, you're never really disconnected from it. So yes, I mean, I think, you know, that's probably the normal arc of my day is trying to get up early, get some exercise in. The workday kind of starts with the prospecting and the reading, you know, goes through to the execution time, ends up back with sort of the prep for the next day. And then, you know, again, the evening, I'm really just trying to disconnect as much as possible and spend that with my family.

49:25 Scott Ingram: Here's what's interesting. I think what I'm picking up on picking up on is what some people might see as a quote-unquote inefficient use of time. Like, wait a minute, you're hanging out for like a couple hours in the morning and just reading stuff? Like, how does that contribute to anything? But it really feels like… and I wonder, I'm curious about if that ties to the emails that you have drafted, and you might have some of those prospects or some of those in-flight opportunities sort of in mind. As you're doing that reading. And it's really just, it's time to be thoughtful and to process because so much of what you're going to need to do in conversations is, is have those insights and have those ideas and be able to have just really constructive conversations and things that you're bringing into all of the different deals and the clients that you're working with. Is that a fair assessment?

50:15 Derek Sentner: Yeah, I think it is. I mean, I think one of the things that I'm trying to do with that time is Either to your point exactly, it's like, well, what are the unique perspectives? What are the thoughts that I can bring to those conversations that does make those phone calls, those emails, those Zooms, whatever it is, feel additive or different than what the normal communication may be and what they're typically used to getting, right? So, so what can I find in that reading that ultimately I can, A, educate myself, but B, it's really about what can I find and what can I learn that something I can use as a sales tool, right? So what are those nuggets that I can repackage and put either in those emails and/or what can I stumble across that, you know, creates an opportunity that I didn't even think that I had, right? So a lot of it is that. I think the other part of it is, you know, just, you know, in that reading, am I learning about, am I finding out about companies that are looking to potentially get into our space that I may not have thought of before, whether that is a CPG company that wants to push into some sort of youth and family, you know, snack, or, you know, it's a toy company that's getting a license from a new theatrical film that's coming out. Like, what are the opportunities that we can just discover that we didn't know about And then again, to your point, you know, how can I use that information to creatively package up the communications that I want to have that engage a conversation and get us seen as a valuable partner, just not a vendor?

51:56 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that feels like it, right? And it feels like that's probably a big differentiator for you. And, you know, when Derek calls, when Derek reaches out, there's going to be some value in that. It's not just To your point earlier, how's that coming? I'm just checking in kind of garbage.

52:09 Derek Sentner: Yep. Yep, exactly. I mean, I think that there's a lot of that and understandably so. And certainly we're doing that, you know, to a degree as well, right? How's it coming? But I think, yeah, I think the more that ultimately you can be seen as a partner and not a vendor, you know, I think that's really, I think that's the goal for obviously everybody. And that's really what we're trying to do.

52:31 Scott Ingram: Yeah. A minute ago, Derek talked about creative packaging. My favorite tool of late to do just that is Proposify. With Proposify, you can create really great looking proposals and templates and do it in a way that's modular. So you can easily pull in the pieces you need for a particular proposal and share just what's relevant. Then my favorite part is the built-in tracking and e-signature capabilities that just make the whole purchasing process seamless for your buyer. Oh, and they just released a forever free version, so it won't cost you a dime to check it out. Click over to top1.fm/proposify right now to get started. And now back to Derek. Here's what he had to say when I asked him about other habits and routines that are central to his success.

53:22 Derek Sentner: I think the one I mentioned before, which, you know, maybe feels like a throwaway or just seems… maybe it seems obvious, is like Quite honestly, for me, like, it's not really work-based, but the exercise piece is just… for me, it's just that, at least personally, is a big… it helps me a lot. You know, I just find that if I can get myself moving in the morning, A, it really helps clear my mind, and B, it just really gets me kind of focused for the day. So again, I mean, it's not a sales thing, it's just a personal thing. But, you know, it was something I started about 2 years ago and it was really hard because, you know, nobody likes getting up at 5:30 in the morning, but I will say, you know, that's something I've personally found to be a huge difference maker. So again, not a sales thing, but just an important part of my daily routine.

54:16 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me too, absolutely core. And now that you've got me thinking about it, the difference between a workout day for me versus a non-workout day. And if I'm doing it right, every day's a workout day, right? I'm, I'm typically a 5, 6 day a week kind of, kind of guy, right? So man, if I don't get that in, I'm just having this recognition in, in real time, like the rest of my day is like seriously at risk. And it's just a counterintuitive thing too, right? Because it's oftentimes the days where I'm not working out are the ones where I feel like I've just got a ton of pressure and there's some things that I really need to crank out first thing in the morning and that'll cause me to skip the workout, but then it's all kind of downhill from there. Like I might get that thing done, but then the rest of the day is kind of a mess. And I'm personally working on augmenting that with a short, very short, like it's 5 to 10 minutes kind of mindfulness type of piece and just a little bit of journaling. And here we are talking, it's New Year's Eve. And I'm curious, I mean, it is the season, right? What does your annual planning and goal setting process look like? How do you tackle that?

55:26 Derek Sentner: Yeah, I mean, I think from a sales perspective and what we try to do towards the last couple months of the year is we try to kind of map out what our goals are for the coming year. And, you know, I think those are, you know, a couple-fold. One is obviously like just a, you know, straight numerical thing, right? Which is like, okay, what are our revenue goals going to be for the coming year and how do we realistically build those, right? So sort of where have we been? Where are we going? What are the opportunities? So we'll work together as a team here to start to build those out. And like I said, you know, typically we do those We've got them done already. So we'll typically do those in the, you know, sometime during the 4th quarter of the current year looking ahead. And so the way that we look at it is we kind of look at it as like a low, medium, high scenario. So I'll kind of talk with the team here and we'll, we'll look at, you know, exactly what it sounds like, which is, you know, look, we'll start with our baseline, which is kind of like what's our most realistic, which is our medium, right? It's like, what do we think, you know, We're not going to kind of be negative or pessimistic or overly optimistic, but, but what do we think is real? Where do we think that based on where we were this year, we see the business going next year? And we'll kind of, you know, that'll be our steady, that's our mid-ground and it's our most realistic, right? It's really kind of what we will build the forecast and the business around going into the coming year. But then we'll also obviously kind of have like our, you know, our pandemic version, which is, You know, if the floor falls out again, what does that look like? And then ultimately it's sort of like, okay, look, if things break the right way and, you know, a couple of things fall, you know, better than we thought, and we've got, you know, a little bit of, maybe we've got a little bit of wind behind our back in some of these areas, what does that look like? So we'll come up with those models and then we'll start to build a plan around those. And those are, you know, revenue-based. But then also we'll kind of sit with the team and say, what are just the, maybe the softer goals that we want to have for the year? Those may not be 100% directly tied to revenue. Those may be about product enhancements. Those may be about strategic partnerships we want to start to put in place. You know, those may be about operational things. And so we'll start to identify what those plans are as well. You know, sitting with and meeting with obviously all of the relevant parties involved, and we'll plan those out as well. So that's typically our approach is we'll try to, you know, set some softer goals. So non-revenue goals and figure out, you know, kind of map out plans and how to best get there and what's needed to help us get there. But then we'll also kind of, you know, just from a pure numbers perspective, have that 3-tiered approach of, you know, What's the revenue model we want to build the business around in 2021? But then also, what are our, you know, if things were to go softer than expected, what do we need to prepare that to look like? And then alternatively, you know, with things breaking the right way a couple of times, you know, what is our true upside that we believe is possible? So that's typically how we'll approach it.

58:29 Scott Ingram: Cool. What about, are there any tools or apps that are just, you couldn't live without?

58:34 Derek Sentner: You know, I mean, at the moment it's, you know, obviously, you know, a lot of it are things like Zoom or Microsoft Teams or BlueJeans and these video conferencing solutions. I mean, we do, you know, we do use Slack here. I would say we're not 100% sort of devout on that as a lot of other companies are, but, you know, we do use Slack here. I mean, that's really it. I would say at least personally, I'm not, you know, I don't think I've got any that I'm kind of totally tied to. I guess I don't have a couple or even, you know, 2 or 3 that I'm sort of, you know, saying, oh God, if I didn't have that. I think probably the… although it seems probably pretty predictable, I guess the one is, you know, unfortunately, because we aren't able to get together with people these days and we aren't able to be in the same room, I guess just having access to these video conference solutions that at least allow for some sort of visual cue, you know, seems to be really important. I mean, I think that, you know, the challenge obviously in, you know, phone calls and things like that is you just don't get that visual cue. And I think even those, the Zooms and the BlueJeans, the Microsoft Teams, it's not, you know, you're still missing a layer of that sort of, you know, in-room emotional connection. So, you know, I think we're all kind of trying to navigate through that.

59:50 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Now, Do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

59:56 Derek Sentner: My sales philosophy is really, you know, I like the word consultative, right? So my philosophy is really, you know, you want to be a consultative salesperson. I think that, you know, one of the things that I was taught early on in my own sales career was this idea that, you know, you don't want to go into a sales conversation meeting, whatever it may be, 100% fixated on what you want to sell this person or what you think you want to sell this person. You think that this person wants to buy from you, right? So I think we've all been… from a sales perspective, I think we've all been in situations where you've kind of done your homework, you know what you… you think you know what the right solution is for this particular client and what their particular problem may be. That you're looking to solve, and then you get in the room with somebody and, you know, it's actually not A, but it's B that they really want to solve. And it's not A that they're looking for a partner to, to help them with, but it's B that they'll… right? And so I think that being able to be consultative, meaning understanding how to pivot, understanding you know, what the resources you have at hand are to solve any of their problems is really the most important thing. I mean, I think that, you know, that is something that I've seen go wrong, right? So the salesperson goes into a room and they, they think this is our answer to their problem, and that person, you know, the client says we're not interested in that, and the conversation ends, right? It's like, okay, but, you know, good salespeople, in my opinion, you don't go in, you know, it's like a quarterback, right? It's like, you know, if you watch football, it's, you know, you stare down the receiver, you're going to throw an interception every time, right? So, you know, having that ability to kind of look off defenders or be flexible is, I think, key to that consultative approach.

1:01:56 Scott Ingram: Yeah. How would you describe your style in that consultative approach?

1:01:59 Derek Sentner: Conversational. I think that that has always been my personal style is, and I think this is always kind of like a challenge for salespeople, is, you know, trying to not be quote unquote salesy, right? But at the end of the day, you know, your job is, you know, as a salesperson is to kind of identify a problem and try to sell a solution. But my approach has always been very conversational to keep, keep it light, to keep it much more about you know, understanding what they're trying to accomplish and then saying, hey, look, you know, here are, here are ways that we can, we can support that. You know, at some point, obviously, that conversational style has to be backed up by hard facts or presentations or, you know, things of that nature. But I found, at least in my experience, that, you know, I feel most comfortable, and I think that my clients and the, the people that I'm interacting with feel more comfortable when it's a conversational approach versus a very structured sales approach, at least at the start.

1:03:04 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. So let me get your perspective on this. Ironically, I was actually talking with Ryan about this very topic yesterday. And if you're taking… if your philosophy and your approach and everything is very consultative, why don't you have a more consultant-y type of title versus you're a VP of Sales and Business Development?

1:03:26 Derek Sentner: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that I guess in theory you could, you know, have a consultative or, you know, consultant style of a title. But to me, I guess it's not ultimately who I am, right? It's not like, hey, like I am a consultant per se. I think it's more of a quality than it is a title, if that makes sense, right? It's sort of like You know, the idea of trying to be consultative is really just more of a philosophy about how we want to execute almost everything we do here, quite honestly, right? It's like, and it goes back to kind of what we were talking about earlier, which is, you know, being a partner, not a vendor, right? So if you're, if you're a vendor, you know, ultimately, obviously, you're just seen as somebody that, that the client or the agency is buying a service from, right? An ad impression, you know, production creative services, whatever that may be. You know, if you're seen as a partner, then really what you're viewed as is somebody that they can bring into the conversation to help them solve their problems. And they may not know at the time honestly what that solution is, right? They may say, hey, look, this is what we're trying to do. How would you guys do it? Or how would you think about it? That's our best case, right? That's when we know that we're being seen differently than somebody they would just issue an RFP from and say, give us a price, or give us a, you know, give us a price to do X. So just getting back to the question about the sort of the title and, you know, the idea of consultative philosophies, I think that it's just more kind of an underlying philosophy of how we want to approach everything that we do, which is we want to get those calls and be thought of as that partner that a client could say to us, hey, we want to achieve X. How would you guys think about doing that? That's kind of the, the goal for us in being consultative in everything that we do. Yeah.

1:05:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah. You know, it was a fascinating conversation and kind of described my own journey right in the early part of my career, because that's, that's how I wanted to be seen. And I even, I was working with a very small company. I renegotiated my title. I'm like, I don't want sales in my title. And I think it's actually the wrong approach. I think you can't be afraid and shy away from the fact, like, look, we're here for a reason. I am in sales. Like, this is the approach. I hope to bring value. To your point, I want to be a great partner and not just another vendor, but I'm not actually a consultant, right? That's, that's not my role here. My, my role is, is to partner with you and, and for there to be a value exchange and, and you're gonna pay us. Yeah, so it's exactly, it's an interesting thing. And I think a lot of people, I don't know if it's a maturity thing or what it is. I think a lot of folks kind of come to that place where like, oh God, I don't, I don't be seen as a salesperson. Well, but you are.

1:06:19 Derek Sentner: Yep.

1:06:19 Scott Ingram: And so own it, be proud of it. Like, that's why we call it being a sales professional.

1:06:24 Derek Sentner: Yeah. And, you know, honestly, ultimately, you also end up kind of pushing up against these boundaries of there are always going to be at some point, you know, in the process, not every process, obviously, and not every client, not every year, not every, you know, not all the time, but you will have these friction points, right? Where you have to keep pushing the client for clarity. And a lot of that happens obviously kind of in that no to yes time, right? Which is like, if you're constantly getting a no from a client, you've got to push to understand why, you know, what is the objective, right? What is your objection? Why are we not able to kind of break through? And that can create some friction, right? Because look, nobody likes to give bad news. I think that that's probably pretty universal, right? So, you know, agencies in particular will try to be fairly soft and broad and vague in any nos that they provide. But as a salesperson, you've really got to push them. You gotta push them for answers. You gotta push them to understand what the challenge is. And, and sometimes that can create, you know, moments of tension, right? Where, you know, somebody says, well, you know, it's just a no, right? And it's like, well, that doesn't help me as the salesperson in our objective. So we need to know more. We need to know more. And that again can create some tension, but that is to your point. And not everybody wants to go there from as a salesperson. But to your point, that's what being a sales professional is, right? It's like pushing further, understanding what the objective is. And at the end of the day, if it creates moments of tension, you've got to navigate through that with ultimately the goal being to get to the other side in a good place.

1:08:13 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Derek, what motivates you or how do you think about motivation?

1:08:18 Derek Sentner: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like what motivates me is the feeling of the win, right? Of just actually like the competitive piece of getting the deal done. Right. I think, you know, as a salesperson and somebody who has had bigger organizations that have had roles that are, you know, purely managerial to, you know, here at Driver where it's a, it's a, you know, more of a kind of a hands-on approach. You know, the thing I've always loved about sales and is the thing that motivates me is sort of the chase, right? So actually the process of, you know, chasing the sale. So what really motivates me is just that process, that, you know, that process of the competitive piece of trying to win, right? It's like, how do we kind of get through that? How do we ultimately get to the other side? And then that's the real, that's the real sort of motivation. Is you know yes it's obviously there's the monetary piece of it, but it's really about that process of competing and winning in this business.

1:09:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah, love it, love it. Is there something you believe that the average sales professional would think is crazy?

1:09:33 Derek Sentner: My feeling is I don't know if people would think it's crazy, but it really does. It goes back to this you know. We keep… I guess I keep going back to your word of creativity. My feeling is that there is never a bad reason to go back to your client or probably your prospective clients, right? So my general philosophy is sort of, you know, you can't really overshare, right? So as long as it's relevant to their business and you feel like you're adding value to the process and continuing to kind of create ways that a conversation can happen. I think that that's just a, you know, an integral part of the overall process. So I'm not sure others would think that's crazy. My feeling is, and what I've seen over the years, is that others just may not be as, you know, may not feel as strongly as I do on that. And so I think that that's one of the things that I'm kind of just philosophically kind of committed to is, again, constantly trying to find those creative ways to open the dialogue.

1:10:40 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. What about the flip side? Is there something the average sales professional believes that you think is crazy?

1:10:46 Derek Sentner: I think this has changed a little bit, but I think there was and probably is to a certain degree this philosophy that, you know, you can close business exclusively on, you know, relationships. And I think that that's changing. I mean, obviously it's changed a little bit now because, you know, with everybody at home, you sort of lose all of the social engagement type things. So that's a little bit of it. But I saw somebody write something the other day, which I thought was really kind of smart and sort of nailed exactly this thought right on the head, which is, you know, you don't close businesses anymore based on relationships. Relationships just give you the opportunity opportunity to present your capabilities, right? So basically the idea is that, you know, it used to be that you could sell just purely based on the relationship, and I think there's a lot of people that probably still believe that, and I think that that's a… I don't want to say it's crazy, but I think that that's overstated. I think what we're seeing now is those relationships, while they're still tremendously important, they're not the thing that will get you the business. They will get you the opportunity to get you the business.

1:12:01 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's certainly helpful. It's not going to hurt you, but there's a little bit more to it than that, right? I'm not just going to do business because I like you.

1:12:10 Derek Sentner: Yep. You know, it's certainly an important part of it, but as the media landscape at least continues to evolve and there's, you know, lots of different ways to sort of get to the same point, Those relationships are obviously key, but, you know, they are not the only thing. But what they can do, and they do do, is certainly get you the opportunity to be in the room and tell your story and position you as best as possible. It's not just anymore, hey, you know, based on the relationship, no worries, you got the business. Now it's like, yeah, you know, we'll give you every opportunity to get it, and that's what that relationship Just getting you right, right.

1:12:47 Scott Ingram: What would you want to know about the top sellers in other organizations?

1:12:52 Derek Sentner: I think it'd probably be interesting to know how much of what they're doing today is different than you know what they were doing a year or two years ago. And I think that when I say what they're doing is is maybe the approach to which they're doing it, right? So I think you know as we we sort of say look, I mean obviously. Things are a little different these days, but just in general, you know, has their approach and the way that they're engaging their clients changed, you know, over the last 18 to 24 months? And if so, you know, what are the things that they're finding to be kind of more and more or less successful than, you know, during that time period? I think that'd be interesting to hear.

1:13:35 Scott Ingram: And what is that for you? I mean, has it changed for you, or are you doing things differently?

1:13:38 Derek Sentner: You know, I think it's a good question. I mean, I think we are doing things differently. You know, I think what we're trying to do is, at least on the media side of the business, is we're trying to find places that we can have more unique and exclusive value to our customers. And I say that because in a way that You know, the media side of our business as an ad network, there traditionally is a general sense of shared resources, right? Meaning like, you know, as an ad network, you're tapping into inventory, ad inventory that may be accessible in other places, right? So for us, it's… we've really tried to focus over the last couple years on how do we differentiate our products And then make that product offering as exclusive as possible, and then really, really from a sales perspective lean in on that core unique value proposition, right? So we're a little different than you know a publisher, at least in the media space, right? So as a publisher who sort of owns and operates the platform, right? So if you own and operate the platform, there's a certain level of. Exclusivity and value that comes with that. As a network, by nature, you're sort of accessing other people's inventory or distributed availability of inventory, right? So for us, we've really focused on over the last 2 years is trying to make that experience feel as premium as possible and as exclusive as possible through third-party relationships like the one we have with Ryan, but also through trying to enhance and perfect the products that we're able to offer across that network.

1:15:29 Scott Ingram: Derek, this has been awesome. Like, we have covered a lot of ground. I wonder if there was anything that you were hoping that we might talk about or that would be useful or valuable for the folks listening to us that I just didn't find a way to ask you the right question to get to.

1:15:47 Derek Sentner: No, I mean, I think that we've covered a lot. I mean, I think that You know, ultimately, I think the things that we did a great job in covering and you really were great at getting to the point on is the things that I sort of talked to my team about and I would, you know, share with others and, you know, hope that this has been informational and helpful in sharing with others is really, you know, focusing on from a sales perspective, being a resource. Right? So whether that comes through, you know, some of the buzzwords that we talked about, you know, like being consultative or being, you know, creative or being a partner, you know, those are the things that ultimately, at least in my experience and in our industry, you know, this digital media space really tend to kind of win out, right? Ultimately, look, you've got to be able to you know, sell your platform. You got to be able to sell your service. You got to be able to sell your capabilities. You've got to have the proof points to back that up. Obviously, it's, you know, being able to show the case studies and the work that you've done for others is always going to be, you know, paramount to kind of getting that degree of credibility in the space. But ultimately, you know, those are the things I think that really make the difference, which is again really kind of getting yourselves and your company and your expertise to be seen as a resource and a partner through that consultative and creative approach are the things that I presume… again, I don't, you know, I've never sold technology, I've never sold, you know, software as a service, but I tend to feel just in my gut that those things carry, right? Those things, you know, translate from industry to industry when it comes to, you know, success as a salesperson.

1:17:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. Well, how do we make this actionable? I always like to kind of try and boil everything down and allow you to issue kind of a challenge. What would you challenge our listener to do over the course of the next, you know, 1 to 2 weeks to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:18:01 Derek Sentner: Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that I would say is I would challenge them to find ways to connect with and communicate with their clients by sharing information and being a resource in ways that is not transactional, right? I would say, look, try to find, you know, identify, you know, a few clients that either you are not working with or you haven't even had the opportunity to kind of, you know, start talking to and try to identify ways and come up with pieces of information, forms of communication that you can connect with them in ways that is not about a sales transaction, right? It's not about, you know, here's why you should buy from me, or here's why, you know, you need to listen to my pitch. You know, what are ways that you can just start a conversation, share information, so you just start being seen as an expert in your field, right? A resource for them, somebody that they know and can expect to have smart, insightful, and useful pieces of information that's meaningful to their business. I think, you know, if you can you know, as a salesperson, identify a few people that you can try that with, you know, start that conversation with. My feeling is, and I would love to, you know, hopefully see this play out for them, is that, you know, it may not be the first time, it may be the second time or the third time, but ultimately that will serve as a way to open doors that previously have seemed to be harder to open.

1:19:45 Scott Ingram: Love it, love it. Derek, this has been a blast. Thanks for taking the time.

1:19:48 Derek Sentner: Oh, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it as well.

1:19:52 Scott Ingram: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.