121: Believe Big with Multiverse's George Mann

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0:33 Scott Ingram: Here's your host, Scott Ingram.

0:37 Scott Ingram: Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest is George Mann. George is the top account executive at Multiverse out of London. Welcome to the show, George.

0:45 George Mann: Hello. Thanks so much for having me, Scott.

0:47 Scott Ingram: Yeah, glad to have you here. And just a call out here for folks who are newer to the show. Here on Sales Success Stories, I only interview active quota carrying individual contributors who are either the outright number one top performers in their organizations, or sometimes I'm willing to settle for the top. 1% when they work for a giant organization. So George is at the top of his game there at Multiverse, and we always start with some immediate value. And George, I'll ask you to talk through the top 3 things that you believe have contributed the most to your success.

1:19 George Mann: Yeah, for sure. I think there are many things that come to mind, but the 3 that really crystallize in my mind is… and I'll kind of list, if you like, the headings and go into a bit more detail. One is around process, which is probably not a surprise to many people who listen. The second is around intentional space and time, which I think is something that many of us in sales profession have probably had to think about more over the last year or so with sort of the pandemic at large, but I think it's been a really critical thing for me. And I know it has been for many of my colleagues and other professionals in the sales space. And then the final one is around running on passion as well. I think that's really important. And I think it's something that means that you can kind of come to your role every day what I like to call kind of new job syndrome. And I think that just keeps you really at the top of your game once you've kind of, you're starting to get there. So those are kind of the 3 sort of meaty ideas. In terms of kind of process to sort of deep dive into it a little bit more, I think we're pretty common, I would say, for a sales organization to be setting up with kind of a MEDDIC playbook. But I think it's very easy to get distracted by other sorts of sort of glinting lights within the sales world and new ideas, etc. But actually having a fantastic playbook and process. We're really fortunate at Multiverse to have some world-class leadership who've helped to develop out the MEDDIC playbook over many, many years, but really kind of committing to it and absorbing it and going beyond just sort of painting by numbers in terms of application, but really thinking about how can you begin to apply it to different contexts, manipulate it, play with it, change it maybe as well, so that you're really making it situationally impactful. I think it's quite easy to either stray from committing to it absolutely. It's also quite easy, I think, sometimes to kind of undervalue it as the bedrock of being really, really kind of successful and making sure you're having impact within your role and particularly within sales. The second piece was sort of intentional space and time. So I think being something that I've managed to do over the kind of the last year or so and a huge amount of coaching around it, but certainly has this sort of an attribute of success, I think, is around that intentional time and space. So really thinking about, well, actually, what do I need to achieve in certain times within the quarter, for example? So at certain points, really thinking of time in kind of day sprints or even half-day sprints, and other times really stepping back and seeing kind of your week, your month, your quarter, your financial year, and having that distance and knowing at what point you should be doing that. So really, I guess, specific examples around that is, you know, I'll absolutely kind of religiously use my calendar when it comes to those sprint moments, really almost sort of blocking out 5, 15-minute bursts throughout my day and and being comfortable doing that almost for a sort of 2-day burst where, you know, maybe we've had some challenges and I'm going to have to pivot course and find kind of new VA from a space to meet up to the gap in quota, or indeed other points thinking, actually, I'm running really hot here, I'm spending a lot of time here, but is it the right thing for this quarter? You know, maybe at the beginning of the quarter or near the middle of the quarter, or indeed is it going to actually serve me well as ROI and time for sort of the following quarter or the following sort of financial year. And it's actually really difficult when you've got, I think, VO in a specific account or you've got very good relationships, it feels comfortable speaking to certain sort of buyers, if you like, or certain clients or customers. Sometimes making the brave call and thinking, actually, I need to step back here and really repivot my time, I think has been something that's really helped me to continue, particularly in a scaling business when the expectation and kind of what was great last quarter maybe, or last financial year, certainly won't be great the following or even in the current one. And so being happy to spend the time and space and thinking and sort of having that strategic time while also kind of being very, very happy to kind of really roll up the sleeves and go for it. And I was actually talking to one of my colleagues just at the end of this week, and we talked about actually, if you can't do something great, don't do it. I think there's, you know, there can be an aptitude for really high kind of activity and always wanting to be really, really on as a sales professional, particularly in a scaling business, looking to, to be really brave and do kind of great things and more and more ambitious things. But actually, often it's the things you almost don't do. If you can't do 100% and you can't go with it, that absolute urgency and immediacy, then ask yourself, is it kind of something that I should be doing? Or actually, am I better kind of completely wiping out and actually sort of sharing it, so passing on an account to someone else maybe, or indeed actually sort of having a really frank conversation even with a client maybe or a customer to say, look, as this is going, I don't think we're going to have huge impact for you, and actually maybe we come back to this conversation later time. So kind of really being intentional about time and space and considering how you can have impact with that, but how you can use that space to really make sure that you're coming back and you're fresh when you're looking to kind of really drive key activity. And it's all around, I guess, ROI and time and making sure you're continually calibrating where you're sort of spending your time. And then the final piece was around running on passion. I think, you know, we're pretty unapologetic about looking to be one of the first sort of startup successful as a unicorn that's got a really key mission behind it. And I think That's something that drives me, I know, and I know it kind of drives a lot of us at Multiverse. But continuously thinking kind of, why am I doing this? And having that passion, I think, is vitally important. One of the things that I think comes down from that is being able to kind of inspire the people on your side of the fence as well. So outside of your sort of go-to-market team, being able to work with marketing, say, or with your compliance or your finance folks, you know, the people who are really, you know, adding value, who are able to actually, you know, build an army behind the things you're doing. And being able to sort of, if you know what your passion is, you're able to kind of explain why the things you're doing are really, really sort of hitting that point. Being able to distill that down to other folks who are in, you know, all there to support you, but actually to go beyond just actioning things for you, or actioning things in accounts with you, but actually being part of kind of a journey that's got a really, really strong narrative, that's got a really strong purpose, and they can play with passion, I think is a really critical thing. And it's something that I've been very intentional about, and certainly has been a positive thing so far.

8:12 Scott Ingram: Great stuff. I wanted to come back. You, you mentioned a couple of acronyms that maybe I'm not familiar with. You said VA and VAO. What are those?

8:20 George Mann: Sorry, I think I think I might have only said VO, but I was just sipping a bit of coffee. So VO is visible opportunity. So a potential deal effectively.

8:28 Scott Ingram: Okay, perfect. Yeah, that's a new one for me. So let's contextualize just, just a little bit. And I'll have you talk about what is your role? How did you get to number 1?

8:37 George Mann: Yeah, sure. Take the first one first. So what is my role? My role is to be able to take kind of our mission, which is to create and accelerate really diverse careers and be able to take kind of that mission, that really key kind of mantra that we all work to, and take it to the C-suite, take it to boardroom with Mikey clients. We have cross-industry clients. We work, yes, in the UK, but we're now kind of launching in America as well and be able to understand sort of high-level pain to which we can answer to. So qualifying through what, you know, where we can support, particularly around digital transformation and the skills required to really sort of, for companies to answer to that mandate. And secondly, so diversity, inclusion, equity, and ensuring organizations are really doing right by that and able to answer to a lot of the lofty sort of ambitions that a lot of organizations are coming out with at the moment. So my role, I guess, is to work with those C-suite individuals to understand actually what do they want to achieve, and then all the way through to getting to the point where actually welcoming individuals onto our programs who are existing employees or indeed helping find really diverse school-leaver talent to join the organization for, you know, the really big-ticket organizations for their first job and learn a hot new skill, maybe software engineering, maybe data, maybe digital marketing. And so my role is to continue to be kind of the, you know, the IC through that and work and coordinate with teams who do a variety of things around, you know, assessing different skills, around recruiting the right individuals. And I kind of oversee that broad piece and make sure there's kind of a level up and also level down of sort of the implementation as well as, as well as that sort of strategic link that we want to have and partnership building with those clients that we're working with.

10:19 Scott Ingram: Perfect. And then quantify your results for us because you've done awfully well.

10:23 George Mann: Yeah, very happy to. That's kind of you. So across, I guess, my last financial year, I was, I was at just over 300%, which I was really thrilled at. It was not the easiest times, but in no way kind of was just my own doing. I think, I think so my first point was very much around process. And we know we're really fortunate to have some of the world's best leaders who have really sort of coached us on that and made sure that we're religious to it day in, day out. And sometimes almost even applied it outside of my day-to-day. So I think that was kind of a key piece. And it's been one that I guess has… I broke down last financial year into courses as you do and managed to kind of maintain that piece throughout. And as I said, those are kind of my 3 thoughts around how that was achievable. Certainly is one that, to use this comment I meant, so you used earlier, is certainly an army rather than me necessarily just on my own, but very happy to have been sort of the flag bearer to get us to that place for sure.

11:18 Scott Ingram: And how did you get here? What's the origin story? How did you get into sales in the first place?

11:22 George Mann: Yeah, so I think I've heard it from a few other guests who've welcomed onto the show. So I actually almost fell into it. So I've got a really strong passion in education, particularly inclusion. I myself actually quite heavily dyslexic, and I found that I was really fortunate that wasn't a barrier to education for me, but very aware that it is for many, many people. I kind of found myself going through Teach First, which is similar to Teach for America in the UK, and then kind of fell into lobbying and PR and public affairs. I really enjoyed the client-facing nature of it, but I was reasonably kind of frustrated at times, I guess, about the kinds of briefs that were coming through and also, you know, the lack of kind of real drive, ambition at points around, and then opportunities to innovate. And so I really wanted to put those 2 things together. So that kind of passion for something that has a very clear social goal, while also something that takes you to sort of, you know, the highest level of decision-making within the business world and kind of be the person banging the drum and supporting organizations start to get into those spaces. So I actually was writing a monthly report at the time about apprenticeships for one of our clients, one of the big car manufacturers, while I was working in lobbying, and it was sort of National Apprenticeship Week. So that's one of the things that obviously we focus on at Multiverse, and I came along to an event to, I guess, try and shortcut having to do a huge amount of research for that month's quite hefty report, Pamplemousse Intelligence, and kind of just fell in love with the idea of, you know, being able to go and effectively sell a product, which is probably not the cleanest way to describe, you know, really helping people in their career, but effectively go to market to sell something that was so clearly going to add value to not just the organization buying, not just the organization selling, but actually to the people who are involved in it. And since, I guess, setting up, setting up at Multiverse, never really looked back or looked elsewhere really. It's been a fantastic, fantastic journey to date.

13:19 Scott Ingram: That's really interesting. So how different do you find the lobbying work you were doing from the sales work you do today?

13:26 George Mann: There certainly is a difference, but I think there's some really key similarities. I think one of the key ones is around preparation. So when you're going to be part of it, when you're part of an account that's looking to give intelligence to an organization around how they can best interact with different stakeholders, NGOs, government, etc., you've got to be super prepared. You've got to really understand what that organization is looking to drive towards and achieve, but also how you can map that into other stakeholders so you again bring people with you. And I don't think that's dissimilar in the world of sales, in that you've got to really understand what is it that those individuals you're working with on a personal level, but also, you know, within their role and the responsibilities they have, want to achieve. And so in that sense, there's a really strong map over. I think the second piece that's reasonably similar is around you know, having a really strong awareness of how to interact very sort of professionally, but, but at the same time also with a lot of sort of people intelligence, understanding actually why are you looking to do something, what are the things that's going to make someone tick, what are the things that is going to make someone comfortable with the work you're doing and that you're representing them with. And also kind of, you know, the small habits around sort of urgency and immediacy when it comes to the work that they are You know, they almost at points will be caring more about some of the aspects than you will, and knowing how to continue to not lose sight of those and to make sure you're delivering value, I guess, is… it comes down to that delivery of value. So I think those are kind of similarities. I guess the slight difference is that in a lobbying sense, you're working across multiple clients with huge amounts of different briefs in loads of different spaces and sectors. And while I think what we're doing at Multiverse really does touch upon you know, quite a few different, very strong themes we're seeing globally around digital transformation, around people, around diversity inclusion. It's not quite as expansive. So actually, you can become, you can have a sort of a deeper level of knowledge in those spaces rather than at points, sometimes much more of a superficial and sort of quickly moving understanding in kind of that sort of that PR, PA, and lobbying space.

15:45 Scott Ingram: That's really interesting. And given that it's very clear that this is a very mission-driven thing for you, Which way do you think you get to have more impact?

15:54 George Mann: It's a great question. I'd say probably Multiverse, if you're asking me to balance out whether in kind of that lobbying space or not, that might also speak more to the kinds of briefs that I was working on when I was in lobbying, which you don't have necessarily as much control over when you're working for kind of an agency. But I would definitely say for Multiverse, it's through and through sort of that mission focus, but unapologetically also a very strong scale-up business. So I would say that I think our message is super relevant to C-suites, which obviously helps to drive much stronger impact than perhaps reporting to sort of a public affairs or public affairs director, etc., at a client space. So just by the level of conversation we're having and where we're having these conversations, I think the latter for sure.

16:40 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's really interesting. I guess there's probably also an argument that just business in general probably moves faster than government and policy organizations do.

16:48 George Mann: Sure, exactly.

16:49 Scott Ingram: Yeah, since we just finished talking about mission-driven organizations, this is probably the best spot to talk about one of our mission-driven sponsors, and that's Outreach. Outreach's mission is to change the way companies engage with their customers through their lifecycle. And if you've been keeping up with the news in the sales tech space, then you know that they just raised another $200 million to help them do just that. To learn more about Outreach and some of their latest innovations that are going to help them achieve that mission, just click over to top1.fm/outreach. So if you were starting over today, knowing what you know now, is there anything that you would have done differently from a career perspective?

17:31 George Mann: I'm not sure necessarily I would have done anything differently. I think I probably would have felt a little bit differently, if that makes sense. So I think at points, when you come out of university or indeed start in kind of that space of, right, I need to get my first kind of professional job, and maybe the first one or two, it does feel like you are kind of calibrating what you're passionate about, your interests, what your strengths are, the things that you're enjoying, where you want to go. And at points it can feel really unnerving, but I think actually having kind of the faith that if you're doing the right things, you are going to get into a track at some point that is going to be the right one, and it's going to be one that you're really kind of given the opportunity to excel at. I think certainly, again, hardly new knowledge, but I've just seen it so much from the stuff we're doing at Multiverse, is sort of really pick your, your leaders, your managers when you're looking at new spaces and looking into, and looking into organizations, because they really do they make the weather. And I think, you know, we're really fortunate about the kinds of leaders, Jeremy Duggan, Steve McCluskey, etc., that we have at Multiverse. And so, you know, really taking the time to think through that, I think that's perhaps a blind spot that I had in the past. I don't think it negatively impacted me, but I think it's sort of, you know, really crucial, crucial detail. And I guess that playing with confidence as you start out and being ambitious, you know, being very happy to think, actually, I kind of want more from what I'm doing. I want to be challenged more than I am. I don't want to be on kind of a level-by-level sort of career path. I want to be owning a bit more of my own destiny. I want to be able to be sort of driving… these are the things for me, right… be able to be driving the conversations with clients. I want to be the one who's sort of working with our delivery team to have an idea of something that we aren't doing currently but might want to do. And sort of age not being a barrier to that, and experience not hugely being a barrier but a contributing factor. So I think kind of that restlessness, but faith and sort of persistence, I think is the thing I wish that maybe I probably would have enjoyed knowing I was headed in the right direction rather than actually sometimes kind of perhaps feeling slightly frustrated on that point.

19:39 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. That's great stuff. I think the leadership callout is a good one. And your comment about they make the weather is pretty brilliant. So we call the show Sales Success Stories. And I wonder if you have a favorite sales story to date, maybe you won, maybe you even lost, but oftentimes I think our best stories come from the ones that taught us the most. Do you have one of those?

19:59 George Mann: Yeah, I certainly do actually, and it kind of feeds into one or two of the comments I've made so far, and it's actually about the first quarter last financial year, and I guess to set the context, the world had just gone into lockdown, we're a people-orientated organization in terms of the things that we're selling in, there's sort of prospective redundancies, organizations certainly weren't looking to do anything particularly new in in the people space. And there was huge amounts of sort of jumpiness, if you like, from our buyers. And I actually, you know, we'd really knuckled down for the first 2 months of the quarter and sort of gone absolutely stripped back to basics. We were getting used to working in a very, very different world. And it was actually just before the last month of the quarter, I noticed that I had a route to post quite a historic number for us as an organization. And I took a good amount of time writing an email to some of the key individuals who I work with from actually outside of our organization and planned and put out a massive ambitious number to say, I think we've got a chance to do this and I'm really going to need your support. We're going to need to have kind of everything go our way. We're going to have to really kind of double down on the details and on our focus. But there is a shot here. And it was a combination of a massive adrenaline moment, but also intensely kind of a lot of sort of antipathy around, oh, well, actually, is this achievable or not? And that belief barrier piece. And I think more than anything, bringing those people with me and actually being able to achieve… we did achieve that number at the end of the quarter, which was really exciting, particularly as I said, in that really choppy market, huge amounts of kind of just global uncertainty anyway. And there was kind of a belief barrier that as an organization we'd been talking about as a possibility for actually quite a few quarters, but no one had quite got there. It was almost… we talk about it internally, Jeremy talks about internally… almost like the Roger Bannister kind of 4-minute mile piece. And it was sort of almost the unspoken thing. We almost didn't use kind of… we almost didn't say the number. It's almost a bit of a he who shall not be named sort of Voldemort number in the organization. But it was one of the, yeah, for me, that was kind of one of the most brilliant moments from what was otherwise, I think for many people, a really tough year last year. But it was, I guess it showed me the impact of really, as I said, building an army, but actually what's done if you kind of push through a belief barrier and you keep going and you believe big, and then you make a really strong plan against how you're going to do that. And you call in kind of brilliant leaders to help you to really fine-tune it and make sure it's great. And then just go. And I think I just ran on adrenaline for a month. And it wasn't kind of until almost the last day that we hit it, but when we did, it was really special for all of us actually, and a huge amount of support, as I said, from leadership and also from brilliant other colleagues. And also, I guess, in many ways, working with some really fantastic clients as well. I spoke earlier about that point around kind of if you can't do 100%, you can't do urgency, you can't do it great, then actually is it the right thing to do? And actually making the calls early about the things I wasn't going to do so that I could really just stream into 3 or 4 really key, really, really key accounts, really, really key deals we're working with. I think it was part of the driver towards us being able to achieve that. And it was, yeah, it was very, very special when we hit it and there wasn't a huge amount else to celebrate at that point for many people. But it would feel extra special in that respect as well.

23:29 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love it. So talk about assembling the army. You said that you reached out as kind of the early stages of that to key individuals outside of the organization. What were you doing there? How were you approaching that?

23:41 George Mann: Yeah, I think, I think there's several parts to that really. So one is absolutely outside of the organization, I think massive believer in mentors. So reached out to one or two of those on different reasons as well. You know, somewhere around, well, actually kind of almost checking my ambition. Is this from an external point of view? There's no one internally who's kind of saying this is a bad idea and rightly so probably. But actually, does this feel like something that You know, this is the context, does feel like this is something we can… I can go and do. Does, you know, what are the thoughts you had around actually what's the, you know, how can I best communicate with colleagues when, you know, obviously I'm a priority among many. I'm, you know, I'm not the only AE, that's not quite the reason I came on the call because that would have been quite easy, right? But, you know, how do I best communicate to motivate them and what are the things that I should maybe put in place to almost as sort of an early warning system where if one of those key 3 or 4 deals hadn't come through, then it simply wouldn't have been achievable. So what I needed, I knew that one of the key things was to be able to quickly identify risk and quickly have support from others and able to address those in different ways, whether that be kind of a CSM being able to identify you know, mass redundancies are about to take place. Remember, that was kind of the reality that we were looking at facing at that point in, you know, a year or so ago. Whether that be kind of key legal documents going through from our compliance team, who again, near the end of a quarter, often working through quite a lot as well. So actually making sure that, you know, no mine kind of in any way were being slowed and there was risk there. So I think speaking externally was around actually getting a outside-in perspective to make sure that I wasn't gapping on anything, but I was really able to work most effectively in the… quite what I imagine a lot of those very special individuals who are working with me would probably call one of the longest sprints of their lives over a month. Yeah, I guess, yeah, effectively working really effectively and making sure that we're on course for that ambition.

25:49 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I may be skipping ahead a little bit because I will definitely dig into kind of your daily routine and process and things like that. But You talked about the way that you're sprinting in different ways throughout the quarter, and then obviously this being a long sprint. What is a typical sprint? What are you deciding to focus? How are you setting yourself up for that?

26:10 George Mann: Yeah, and I guess to give a bit of framing to my answer, it was only through actually stepping back for Friday afternoon before that sort of last month of the quarter did I realize that that kind of ambition goal was achievable. So that's kind of in respect of that time and space and actually going slow and then thinking, right, I need to plan through that. And it will be a case of sprints, so the clock changes. So this is sort of answering to your question of what do sprints feel like. It's thinking of, particularly on a Friday for me, is, is having all of sort of the key leading indicators, the key You know, the key decisions that need to be made that week, the key actions that need to be achieved that week, and checking through on all of those so that we're constantly, constantly aware of where we are, making sure we're on track against timelines for sort of sign-off and for beginning of scopes. And then I guess the sprint piece, I guess I think about that as actually it's often the slow time that enables you to kind of make that plan and to plan for your sprints. I try not to make them too hectic. I think you can end up kind of over being active. But I think it's where you've got really clear goals, you've set the goals and you're just driving towards them, you're driving really clearly. So I guess for me, it's around those key accounts driving towards, you know, those 3, 4 key deals, was driving towards getting to a place where we kind of had sign-off and ready to go. And in our world, actually, you know, one of the things we do, particularly when we're upskilling individuals, is information sessions, building almost like a campaign with a client around, you know, the opportunity for individuals to upskill in something like data or project management. And so a lot of it is around having a lot of conversations with key decision makers, seeing if there's other key decision makers maybe you haven't heard of who've got a team or department who could benefit from it. And once you've got the activity in the campaign going, you might actually end up sort of finding new VO, or as I said, visible opportunity to pull into that deal and to really grow it as you're going through kind of the final closing motions of a sale. So for me, that sprint is kind of just almost a relentless focus on the 3, 4 key deals and constantly thinking, how can I, you know, basically being very less thinking, more being very active and having really high kind of meeting count per week, having really high kind of almost overcommunication with client around risks around key steps and sort of making sure that you're constantly visible and constantly audible ready on sort of anticipating the objections, having the call, having the tough calls, and constantly sort of double-checking yourself as well against several different streams in the account. So hearing something from one person, checking through with another, that's exactly what the objection is or actually why that's an objection, and sort of constantly having that temperature check. Does that make sense?

29:05 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it does. And it's resonating in a lot of ways, right? So one of the great pieces of advice that I got in my career that I didn't understand for a long time, honestly, I had a, I had a manager who would tell me that sometimes you have to go slow to go fast. And what I hear about what you're doing is really being intentional, doing the thinking, doing the strategy work to figure out, okay, what, what is the most important stuff? And then just blocking out everything else and executing against that. Just, you know, now we're going to run at it and we're going to accomplish as much of this as we can and then kind of rinse and repeat. Is that a fair way of boiling that down?

29:43 George Mann: Yeah, it's probably a more succinct way than I described it, but absolutely. And I think to give kind of a reference, if that's helpful, I know he's just got a new book out. I'm not sure if you've come across the behavioral economics space, but Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow talks about the 2 sides of the brain, sort of the slow think and the fast think. And when you're kind of trying to switch in between 2 too often, you end up kind of having bad think, if you like. You kind of, you're not actually getting up to outcomes. So being really intentional about when are you going to slow think and when are you going to fast think and dedicating to one of the 2 and being intentional about when you need to do that. And, and, you know, that's different for all kinds of sales professionals dependent on their rhythms of their quarters or the financial years and indeed deal cycles. But Thinking of applying that, I think really helps you to kind of unlock your capability naturally, how we're kind of wired up, I guess.

30:36 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually haven't read that book, so that just, that moved way up on my list. I think that sounds like something that would be very useful.

30:45 George Mann: Yeah, sure. It's actually one of my favorite books. I almost should be getting commission from Daniel Kahneman because I've recommended or bought it for so many people now that I'm probably one of his unofficial marketeers.

30:54 Scott Ingram: There you go. Good to know. Any other books that kind of fit in that same level?

30:58 George Mann: Or that same space? Yeah. So another one is Matthew Syed and Black Box Thinking. I'm a really big believer in, as I said, moving at something with urgency, moving at something fast, but also not being afraid to fail and to sandbox and to test and innovate. And that kind of goes, I guess, that first piece of advice we started at the top of the conversation with, which is around So being dedicated to process, and part of that is continuing to dedicate to manipulate, innovate process so it's right for the context in which you're in, and not being afraid to sandbox and to move outside of maybe the way it was designed or the context it was designed. We're using a SaaS sales model within a very sort of people-focused orientation. And one of the things that, the first thing that Jeremy and Steve did when they joined was to recalibrate who we were speaking to. Which is, you know, for us it felt really daunting going instead of speaking maybe to an HR professional, going to speak to a C-suite individual about, about what we do. And that was a great example of where that's been applied really masterfully, I think. And you can see that in all kinds of very sort of commonly used sales measures around deal size, deal time, ASP, etc. But actually we end up doing much, much… it's much more exciting environment to be working into that sort of context. But for me, continuing to sort of sandbox and to be happy to give a lot of things a go, and particularly in a startup context, that's part of the fun, that's part of the reason you might join a startup company, is to have that ability to really go play. So I think, yeah, Black Box Thinking is certainly another one that I definitely have lent on, and I found very educative having read, for sure.

32:42 Scott Ingram: The common theme seems to be thinking.

32:45 George Mann: Yeah, yes, that is true. I do like to think. But I think, you know, I imagine that it's not a bad trait for a sales professional. It's It's not… it is a contact sport in many ways, but it is also a thinking sport. You have to have… you have to be able to think through a situation. You have to be able to plan. You have to be kind of strategic, or certainly in the kinds of sales that we do, to really pull together a fantastic campaign and to work through complexities, understand people and how you're going to address certain personal blockers maybe, or indeed kind of, you know, actually unlock opportunities and spot them. So I think, yeah, thinking is something that I think is really important and again goes to my slow point, which is actually sometimes you just really need to have slow points to be able to think so that you can then when you're really active, you're ramping up your activity, you know, it's the right activity. You're not headed in the wrong direction and going really fast, but actually not towards the things you want to go towards.

33:39 Scott Ingram: Speaking of thinking, one of the things I think we should all probably do is think about our sales process and the buying experience that we are creating. A tool that has been a complete game changer for me in that respect is Proposify. I've been able to use Proposify to take a ton of the friction out of my own sales process in that contracting to signature phase, especially in the way I can put some of the final pricing options in the hands of my clients so they can make those adjustments themselves without us going back and forth and then electronically sign in one seamless motion. It's definitely worth checking out, especially now that they've introduced a completely free tier. Check them out at top1.fm/proposify. So George, what, what are you most proud of?

34:27 George Mann: I think it's some of the points that I've got to with some of my accounts and my key clients where, you know, we started in a reasonably humble way doing impactful work, but not necessarily at scale, but actually starting to get to a point where we are, you know, so last, last week, for example, client I've been working with for 2 and a half or so years actually have a new head of data, new chief data officer. Actually, before they kind of almost even walked into the building, sent me a note saying, we've heard about what you're up to and what Multiverse are up to. Do you mind coming in, give me kind of an hour briefing on, on the ways in which we can learn from the things you're doing at others of clients with their data strategy and the things that you're doing to support them to make sure that's really impactful and it's sort of super, super relevant. And so getting to that, I guess that was more of an inflection moment, right, of, you know, we are, you know, we are really doing some exciting stuff here. I'm really sort of involved with very leading conversations when, when sort of someone who's just entered an organization is actually already starting to lean on me as a sales professional for insight and intelligence around the industry and the space they're looking to do. And so while that in and of itself might not sound like the largest of accolades, I think it's the nicest way to kind of summarize as a really pithy example of kind of that skill acquisition of all the things that we've been working on and working on sort of over the last few years to get into that space as a really kind of trusted advisor. So I think that in and of itself, I think was was really special. And I think, you know, it also unlocks the opportunity to do… to continue to do really exciting things moving forward as well. So it kind of sets the sights for things to come. But I think that as a moment was probably one of my most sort of proud moments and one of the sort of most special moments for me, more because of the things that it said around what I had done rather than it in and of itself being kind of an accolade. But that's the one for me.

36:27 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, that's kind of the dream, right? You've got a new contact at one of your clients cold calling you and asking for a meeting is, is pretty good. So what was it, you know, what prompted that? What were the things that got you to that point?

36:42 George Mann: Yeah, and the best stories and the best sort of examples have kind of an interesting reality underneath them. It was, I had learned that that individual was joining the leadership team of one of my clients and I had sort of I guess planted the seed with a few individuals that maybe this is… it would be quite interesting to meet this person. So clearly those conversations have been had. And so, and then off his own back, he reached out to say, yes, actually really would like a conversation, sort of cold emailed me. So part of that, I guess, is sort of the short-term tactical things that led to that. But I guess prior to that was turning up day in, day out for 2 and a half years as a business professional versus sort of just just as a salesperson and really making sure that, you know, I think that aesthetic's really important. I think I'm absolutely a champion of sales as a profession and making sure that, you know, you are turning up as a sales professional and professional sort of with a capital P and a big old underline underneath it. And doing that day in, day out consistently and also being able to demonstrate value that we've added to that client over that duration and at key moments. And that again speaks to working very closely with marketing and with customer success functions and also a huge range of different stakeholders on their side so that we're capturing those success stories. Individuals who've managed to get a number of promotions off the back of the skills they've learned through the work we've done with them, around the residents who kind of previously might have come from very challenging backgrounds, unemployed, who have managed to enter that organization through kind of the deals that we've done and the work that we've done, and capturing them and really kind of understanding why, for an organization, that's really important. But equally, you know, for those individuals involved, whether they be those who are on our programs, those who are kind of managing them, their teams, or indeed kind of the leadership, why that's really important to their agenda. So I think those are the things that kind of come to mind.

38:37 Scott Ingram: Excellent. Excellent. Well, let's go in the other direction. What do you find to be the hardest part? What's the most challenging part of your work today?

38:45 George Mann: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it is the flipping between, the flipping between being really kind of strategic at one hand where you're preparing and constantly looking. So part of our sales process is that we're looking to do, you know, 1 to 2 key new business meetings with C-suite individuals on a weekly basis, no matter when in the quarter or when in the year, because that's the thing that will… that's our lifeblood. So doing that while also responding to kind of live challenges in accounts, multiple different sort of key engagements we're doing. So where we're working through a client and kind of looking to build out ROI studies, whether it be we're looking to prepare them for sort of media or social media, where we've got some internal things that we're also looking to do. And so I guess flexing and balancing across those things where you hop onto a very, very thorough, well-prepared new business meeting where we have a lot of internal prep calls beforehand with our leadership to make sure that we're really, really aligned, that we've really done our homework, we've done our research, going through being super, super slick and making sure you're prepared and able to turn up like that. Then following up and being really kind of clinical around how you capture the conversation around the actions that we want to drive, understanding those key individuals in the room and kind of, you know, really having that as something that in and of itself probably could almost be the only thing you do. But at the same time, having a lot of other live things going on. And I guess it's just balancing those things which require a lot of different types of thinking, different types of skills, very different types of thought sort of processes. So I think that's the thing for me and ensuring that you're doing all well and you're able to continue to prioritize the things that are actually going to be driving the needle. You're giving kind of your best to the key things and you're also able to not let anything, anything go. One of, one of the things that I, I'd hate to think is at any point I'm the bottleneck within any of the sort of key things that we're looking to do as an organization or indeed within kind of my, my key client accounts. But it's continuously being able to sort of calibrate that sort of different type of activity across any given day or indeed week. Yeah.

40:56 Scott Ingram: Well, and that C-level meeting bar metric is really high. What, what have you found to be most effective in getting those meetings for yourself?

41:05 George Mann: Yeah. So I think for me, it's certainly been the ability to share the impact that we're having at sort of our existing clients. So it is very much often the case that, you know, that C-suite is very connected. And so that's always a really kind of key way that we'd work, whether that be through kind of referencing the way in which we're adding value for a similar client in their industry, or indeed actually asking sort of key champions within some of my clients to introduce me to other kind of C-suite individuals in other organizations who they're connected with or have an affinity with. I think secondly is we've just got such a zeitgeist at the moment around the need for digital transformation. Most investor calls last year spoke about it. Mark Read, WPP spoke about sort of 3 years' worth of innovation in 3 weeks, etc., etc. And so there's a real need for those sort of skills, I guess, that are associated with what we offer. But also at the same time, there's a real kind of burning platform around doing something around ensuring access and inclusion within the workforce at large. So I think relevancy of product-market fit probably talks a lot to that. And actually, those C-suite individuals who are putting their name against those responsibilities aren't necessarily having the easiest time of actually delivering against those things. So, you know, really being able to articulate how a partnership with us would be able to address those in a very C-suite friendly way is probably the key thing that's differentiating us, that's enabling me to get those meetings, enabling indeed the team as well.

42:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, great stuff. Well, let's officially come back to how you're managing all of the different tasks and priorities and thinking and everything else. And the way that I like to pull apart your day is start from the beginning. Let's, let's just go to the end. So alarm clock goes off. What time did that happen? And I want the blow-by-blow until your head hits the pillow.

43:00 George Mann: Yeah, for sure. So alarm goes off. Normally I'll have a glass of water by my bed and have that. A big believer in making sure that, you know, it's those marginal things and that done every day that enable you to stay on top form. I read a book actually over the summer called Make Your Bed, written by an ex-Sandhurst leader. And so I will always absolutely immaculately make my bed. And then I'll probably go through and do 2-3 minutes of meditation breathing or indeed yoga. If it's the beginning of the week, it's typically then sort of a bit of a run. So I'll go for normally about half an hour or so. Great way to kind of clear the head and to kind of get me motivated. And then through, it's probably then another glass of water when I get back in the shower, playing music. I love playing music in line with kind of my mood. So I normally play some music there, dependent really on the kind of day that I know I'm going to have, you know, whether I need something that's going to kind of gee me up and fire me up, or whether it's something that's going to enable me to kind of take it down a gear and to really kind of follow through and concentrate. And then it would normally be kind of going from there on in with sort of early morning, we'll typically block out time to do kind of those keys of, I guess, prep work for the new business meetings and any other kind of broader strategic piece. I find my morning energy, feel like my morning rhythm is very much around being able to sort of very much concentrate and to do kind of long, longer tasks that take a bit more time. Also, I guess I'll probably start those a little bit before the inbox starts to get hammered. So that will probably take me through to about 9-ish. And then my first few calls of the day, I always want to have my first few calls of the day to be sort of key impact things. So I've got a whole day to run at them if anything doesn't quite go right. And typically they will be kind of client calls or indeed those new business meetings I mentioned. And then through to a bit of a snacker, if I'm really honest. So there's often a little bit of fruit in there, quite a lot of coffees between each meeting. There's certainly, certainly a coffee. And then I like to try to find a little bit of time in the middle of the day to then kind of catch my breath, get through the inbox again, and to continue to, I guess, action anything that's super urgent, whether that's sort of WhatsApping a colleague or a client if this is the sort of urgent things. And then through I do like to have quite a lot of meetings in the afternoon, partly because I end up kind of getting a little bit more tired in the afternoon. And so if I'm there, I have to be present. So I love being around people. That's, I think, the thing I prefer versus kind of that, some of that sort of longer thinking piece that goes at the beginning of the day. And so would often kind of have, I guess, half an hour meetings in the afternoon. And I must admit, I'm not so good at getting up from my desk. I often get almost quite fixated in what I'm doing through. So Probably won't see the exercise again until maybe the evening if that's something unplanned and if indeed the UK weather is allowing me to do that. And then dinner's normally kind of about 8-ish and that's kind of my big main meal for the day. I quite like to have a big one in the evening. And then normally we'll kind of then keep very visible on things coming into my inbox so that I can start my next day with the same cycle of kind of being very intentional about my time and being almost kind of boxed in in my time. I imagine you might have a few questions about some of the details around that, but that's kind of your high-level overview of my day.

46:26 Scott Ingram: Of course I do. So it sounds like, it sounds like some of that planning is happening late in the day and maybe that's what's informing what the playlist is going to sound like in the morning. Is that fair?

46:37 George Mann: That is very fair. Yeah. Yeah. Whether it's going to be sort of lighter classical music or whether it's going to be sort of inspirational rap music, I don't really, don't blush too much at saying there's some stuff on my playlist that I think a lot of people would have issue with as being just a little bit too obvious, but quite like some '90s dance tunes and some of the good stuff and some of the light stuff for sure. So yeah, but normally my… I wouldn't… I don't need to pre-can it. I've got quite a few kind of set playlists ready to go for my mood. So it's all set and ready to go, that one.

47:08 Scott Ingram: Perfect. Perfect. And then what does your information diet look like? What are you reading, listening to, watching? And when does that happen?

47:15 George Mann: Yeah, I actually recalibrated that a bit at the beginning of lockdown last year where I kind of made a decision. And this is the same time, by the way, where that first quarter I mentioned where I kind of had that visibility of something quite kind of ambitious where I could either be really upset about not being able to see friends, go to the pub, play sport, etc. Or I could really focus in and almost take it kind of as quite, you know, throw myself at sort of sales and also kind of self-development if you like. And I made a decision that I'm a bit of a serial reader. So I'll often have many books on the go none of them finished, which really does frustrate me because I do like to accomplish. So I made a decision to really focus on themes. So I spent… there's never… I'm never far away from a development book on the horizon, but my recent themes have very much been about… I read history and politics at university, so quite a lot of stuff recently on kind of modern Russia, media within Russia, culture within Russia. I've also spent a little bit of time looking at kind of crypto. I was quite interested in that sort of space. And evolving markets in that, its intersection, I guess, with certain areas of the globe. And then, as I said, quite interested in development books. I've been reading quite a bit, I guess, written by ex-military and some military personnel. I find really motivating that kind of discipline and focus. And I guess also being thrown into much, much more life-threatening situations than I ever will be on my Zoom calls and how you respond under that pressure, whether it be kind of being taken ambush or hostage, or indeed the first time being responsible for a unit going out in, you know, into kind of one of the sort of Gulf states, etc. And I just find this so motivating. And then a lighter side in terms of, I guess, watched content, about halfway through my quarter, pretty much every quarter now for a year, I watch Last Dance. I find it so motivational, inspirational. I'm a big sports fan. I played a bit of basketball when I was younger, but can't say I'm brilliant, and genetics isn't quite on my size as I'm just under 6 foot, but that's something that I really enjoy watching. And then during the weekend, I also like to watch a film. It's just a really great way of kind of cutting off, slowing down, and it's just, yeah, that's something that I really look forward to and always crave at the end of the week. A little bit of kind of FT and some newspapers as and when, but I avoid those. I don't necessarily get a huge amount of pleasure from those, but I like to stay a little bit relevant. That's the majority of it.

49:35 Scott Ingram: Gotcha. So personal curiosity and at risk of going down a very deep rabbit hole. Sure. What's your current kind of thinking on the crypto front?

49:43 George Mann: Wow. That was a great shout. I think it's still a really exciting market. I think it's one of those things, right, where in a kind of regulated space, it's much more evident as to when there are significant events and is in some ways kind of a little bit more predictable. But in the crypto market, there's a good ring of insiders who tip… and obviously, we're talking beyond Bitcoin here, we're talking about a lot of newer coins, but there's a lot of insider knowledge there. I think that's something that you want to consider if you're looking at a space that actually, you might not be playing a fair game. You are playing on the roulette wheel, but certainly, it's exciting. Again, I'm not going to profess to be an expert in any way, but I think it's really exciting, particularly the things that blockchain can do around contracting, actually beyond coin usage. But certainly, certainly something I think is going to, going to continue to play a really strong role moving forward. And I hope it does. I think, I think it's asked some really difficult but important questions to kind of a very established DeFi space.

50:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely.

50:42 George Mann: And I'll stop there before I go completely off track. But I think…

50:46 Scott Ingram: I was going to say, I won't, I won't even, I won't even start because we'll spend a whole other hour.

50:50 George Mann: Yeah.

50:50 Scott Ingram: This other path.

50:52 George Mann: Yeah.

50:53 Scott Ingram: What about the tools and apps? Like, what does your kind of personal tech stack look like that you're using to support yourself?

51:00 George Mann: Yeah, actually reasonably simple. I'm quite a paper-based person, which isn't very trendy to say, I know, but I'm not ashamed of using huge amounts of plain white paper, much to the disappointment of our leadership who are constantly reminding me that I should be getting an iPad, but I just don't want to. But I guess the key kind of stack that we use is HubSpot, which is well implemented, I think. I have in the past used Calendly to sort of support, I guess, on meeting, but that's not enough. If you're asking kind of a client who's looking to buy from you to book in time with you, the dynamic doesn't quite feel right. And then it's the obvious, the Gmails and the sort of calendar. And I guess my setup in Gmail might be interesting to kind of share a little bit, which is, I think I mentioned earlier today that I'm dyslexic, so my reading speed is not necessarily as great, and sometimes my recall is not as strong. So I've actually set it up so that… and by the way, other people have seen it, drives them nuts, but for me it works… which is to automatically, as soon as a message is open and read, and if I close it, it automatically goes out of my inbox into archive. And then it really forces me again to… I know it's probably a theme that we spoke about today, isn't it, about intentionality, space, and time… not to read my email at 7 PM on a Saturday when I'm not going to action it. And not to read it while I'm mid-meeting, which does still happen, but, you know, to actually really make sure that I'm doing it most sort of efficiently and intentionally. I'm not kind of just drifting into my inbox and living there. And one of my managers in the past had a phrase that I thought was probably quite interesting to share, which is, if you're reading and living in your inbox, you're effectively doing other people's to-do list rather than your own. And so, you know, that's something that I do, I guess, to make sure I'm driving actions rather than simply communicating, and I'm communicating with a purpose. And again, also, it gives me that clean inbox feel, which is quite nice. I don't get down to it very often, in honesty, but it does mean that the things at the top of my inbox generally haven't been actioned and need actioning, and the things that aren't in my inbox have been actioned or have simply been read, and that's all I need to know. So I guess keep me resetting at the beginning of each day to focus on the things I need to focus on, and having awareness and deciding what those are. And yes, they will include sort of other individuals' sort of actions, but actually keeping me super focused on what I'm looking to achieve.

53:14 Scott Ingram: So it sounds like you've got it set up to be sort of a forcing function where if I open this email, that means I'm going to have to decide what to do with it.

53:22 George Mann: Correct.

53:22 Scott Ingram: That's awesome.

53:23 George Mann: Yeah. Yeah. There have been one or two moments where that hasn't served me so well, but on the whole, it serves… I think it does serve me well.

53:30 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Now I think I know the answer to this, but do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

53:35 George Mann: Yeah. So we very much so. So the MEDDIC philosophy. So obviously we Jeremy Duggan and Steve McCluskey in-house, that's, that's something that we subscribe to. So yes, I'd say that one. And I guess the beauty of that is that we continue to… well, I personally feel like I've still got huge amounts to learn and develop and to iterate. You know, it's kind of like that vanishing point.

53:55 Scott Ingram: Let me talk about our final sponsor of this episode real quick, and that's Gong. Now, I don't have any actual details around this, but I recently saw that Gong can automatically capture MEDDIC stage details by pulling in keywords from emails and calls. Really incredible stuff from a deal management perspective, both for individuals and leaders. You should get in touch with Gong and ask them about that. Tell them I sent you. top1.fm/gong.

54:24 George Mann: Certainly that one. And yeah, it's been, it's been game-changing for me as an individual, but also us as an organization. So yeah, that's the one that I'd put my, put my chips on.

54:35 Scott Ingram: Yeah, well, and I didn't say it at the time, but I felt like the way that you were describing process at the very beginning was you really just, you've taken ownership of that, right? You've sort of made MEDDIC your own. And so along those lines, I wonder, how would you describe your style within that philosophy?

54:54 George Mann: That's a great question. So I think I'm more of an instinct player by nature and kind of activity person by nature. Rather than necessarily a process-orientated person as such. So I think I've kind of had an evolving relationship with MEDDIC. Initially was sort of a little resistant, but really trying to absorb. But now I'd say that I use it as a framework, if you like. It's almost like it's sort of, you know, I wouldn't say they're stabilizers as such, but if you're doing temp in bowling, it kind of gives the you know, gives the side barriers up, which by the way I don't do. I definitely have the side barriers down whenever I'm bowling. But gets this… and so, you know, that activity, momentum, and kind of, you know, playing with passion, which I mentioned at the top as well, it makes sure that I'm heading in the right direction, even if it means I have to kind of bounce reasonably ungracefully off, off a side barrier and maybe on to the next one. But it means I'm actually still headed in the right direction. So I very much use it as a way to continue to frame my thinking and to be a support mechanism to make sure that, you know, I am doing my thing. You know, when you have that, so when you hit that belief barrier, am I doing, you know, a month out, say, is a good example. Is this really achievable or not? Well, actually go back to MEDDIC and actually what is the risk profile of these key deals that I think I can do, but actually it feels that number that I'm putting there feels quite scary. And, you know, I'm going to put everything behind it. There's no question about that. But actually, What's this saying? What's this kind of very sort of strategic scientific kind of thinking saying around what makes a great deal, what makes a great, you know, you can build very strong, predictable, reliable scaling business off it. What's this saying to me? And so I guess I use it in that respect. I use it really kind of as a channeling force, but don't let it kind of arrest me. It's not a straitjacket. And I'll continue to kind of, I guess, you know, play with instinct and play with some flair and passion. And energy, but kind of won't, won't step away too far from it.

56:53 Scott Ingram: Nice. Nice.

56:54 George Mann: Does that make sense?

56:54 Scott Ingram: It does. It does. What about the motivation side? Like, what drives all of this for you? How do you think about motivation in general?

57:01 George Mann: Yeah, it's interesting. And I think actually, one of the topics that's very much been on my mind recently is around how do you maintain motivation when you are kind of in that gear of actually being able to continue to post really great results and to sort of deliver real impact? I think for me, it is around, you know, playing for pride and continuing to be able to kind of push the things that we do in a really interesting direction, finding new problems, new challenges, new ways to apply, yes, our process, but also how our product can have impacts. And I think having kind of impact, just that in and of itself, I think is something I find so exciting and motivating. You know, not doing insignificant things, doing things that really, you know, change lives, that really kind of allow individuals to, you know, continue to uphold their responsibility as kind of a leader in an organization and deliver against the things they want to do. And kind of being involved in like some really meaty concepts and really meaty sort of issues, I guess, you know, within kind of the business space around transformation and the future of how technology is going to interface with our lives, around how do you get the best people into an organization or into leading organizations to bring the best ideas, you know, being involved with those things that really drive impact, I think it's just, it really kind of makes me tick. But I do sometimes have to kind of, I guess, dig a little deeper to actually kind of almost frame situations where maybe it's something that I don't necessarily quite want to do or something that maybe isn't quite as kind of, you know, impactful, if you like, and think of, so I do think of ways that to sort of almost motivate me to gamify, if you like, contexts and situations. Whether that be around kind of, you know, very clearly setting a target around it, whether it be kind of really thinking about and trying to articulate in a snappy way in my mind the impact of not doing it and what that means and why I wouldn't want that. And almost kind of continuing to have that internal dialogue of, you know, the things that I wouldn't necessarily have an affinity towards, why I'm doing them. But then the things that That's the bulk of my time is things I think naturally tick with me. So I guess it's quite helpful.

59:08 Scott Ingram: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You said this a little bit differently than the note you sent me earlier, but I'd love to hear more about this, this idea of the new job feeling, because I feel like that and some of the passion might tie in here as well.

59:21 George Mann: Yeah, for sure. And this is a phrase that my RD coined, kind of, I guess, sharing what she, what she had seen and, you know, and working, starting to work with me more and more, saying that, that she says, you know, probably does lead me to continue to sort of find my motivation energy. And I think there's that new job feeling. We've all been there before where we've started a new job that we're excited about, and there's that kind of level of curiosity and intensity. And also almost, for me anyway, you don't quite know what you don't know. You don't quite have that that fear. You haven't quite been bitten twice shy, etc. And so you come to it with flair and with excitement and with kind of a, you know, I'm going to do something new here, which you don't get once maybe you've bedded into an organization after 6 months, a year, 2 months, etc. You don't necessarily bring that. And so finding ways to… and we spoke about that a second ago, right? Finding ways where you're you're bringing that new job energy into what has been the same job for 2 and a bit years, I think is something that's really important to me, but I think is something that's not necessarily often that spoken about. I think there's kind of a slightly pejorative view around what kind of someone joining green or fresh might be like. But actually, I think it's really important.

1:00:42 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I loved seeing the quote, right? It's a really interesting mindset, even just to think about, like, okay, well, what would that mean? Right? If I adopted that, I mean, shoot, I've been in my current role for 5 and a half years. You know, what would that look like if I was coming in, you know, completely fresh with that level of kind of excitement and possibility and not knowing everything that I've learned now? So very interesting stuff.

1:01:04 George Mann: For sure. And it kind of keeps you agile of mind as well, isn't it? I think there's a really clear… I think most people go into a new job thinking, I don't know everything. And I think actually that's really important to do even as you're starting to have a longer tenure somewhere, because it removes you from starting to do things kind of just out of habit and not questioning, is this actually the right thing to do? Whereas when you come in with that new job feel, I think you do that because you don't know the way. So actually, you have to think through the way, you have to be inquisitive about the way. And I think bringing that kind of curiosity and inquisitiveness is a habit that definitely serves well. And I guess it It also links a little bit to my point about time and place and space as well, and continuing to kind of, you know, challenge and not just accept process. So yes, this is our playbook. I would never say this is, this is not the playbook I'm going to use, but everyone else can use it. But actually, well, how is this playbook going to serve me best in this context? And it's just, it's again, just that, that sort of mindset, I think, that enables you to do it. And it also means that you're less, you're more resilient to challenge as well. I think most people experience in the first week, day, few hours, maybe not if your induction's great, in a new job, sort of challenge. And so I think just that mindset enables you to be ready for it and to respond to it kind of thoughtfully and not take it as, you know, not take it as kind of an ego shot or, oh wow, I've been here for 2 and a half years, I don't know this, and get defensive. But it enables you to really take on board those moments of challenge and kind of grow from them, which I think and grow from quickly as well. No one starting a new job wants to hear a piece of feedback and think, oh yeah, well, I'll come around to that next week. Whereas someone who maybe has had a slightly longer tenure, maybe there's a piece there around, well, actually, I kind of know better, or I kind of, I've done this before, or what do they know, or whatever. And I think it allows you to respond most positively to feedback as well.

1:02:54 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's interesting. Now, I wonder if there is something that you believe that the average sales rep would think is crazy?

1:03:02 George Mann: That's a great question. I think this is probably kind of reasonably shared, but I think is super, super important. And there's a key differentiator between individuals who are able to really go and thrive and succeed within their sales profession or not. And I think it is going for the no. I think really going for the no feels uncomfortable. It feels against your instinct, but it's just a crucial way of, I think, how our sort of psychology ticks. And another… I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give you a reading list by constantly referencing stuff, but a really great book I read was ex-FBI negotiator Chris Voss, who… it's called Never Split the Difference… talks about the real importance of being able to make someone comfortable with the idea of saying no. And so I'll almost, in key conversations, plan for what are the ways I can frame the question where an individual's kind of… is easier for them to answer no than it is to answer yes, even to kind of, I guess, detriment of my deal or indeed the account or etc. Because that's just, I guess, the way our psychology ticks. And it feels uncomfortable. The first few times I tried it, I sort of delivered and I thought, George, what are you doing? Your job is to get exactly the opposite outcome to the one that you're, that you're kind of opening the door to, you're suggesting. You know, that some of the key questions here are, you know, this seems to be a challenge. Are you sure you still want to go ahead with this? This doesn't quite seem maybe as achievable as we thought when we first set out. Is this really the right time? And do you know what? It's unlocked some of the most interesting conversations that have kind of almost secured a deal, even though the instinct of someone hearing that might be that it would be quite the opposite. So I think, yeah, going for the no has been something that some people might think is absolute lunacy, but certainly, certainly is something that I think is like really, really important.

1:04:53 Scott Ingram: Yeah. The way I always think about that is if you try and push something on someone, their natural inclination is, is to be, to recoil and to move away versus if you take something away from someone, they're now inclined to kind of come towards you and come after it. And so, you know, that's kind of that push-pull idea. Of why that works sort of counterintuitively on the surface. But if you're just, you know, trying to get yes, yes, yes, yes, yes all the time, a lot of times they're not going to tell you what, what the real issue is underneath and something ends up blowing up later.

1:05:26 George Mann: Yeah, exactly. And we talk a lot about paying now or paying later. If you manage to qualify the pain, not, not in a medic sense, but the challenge early on in the quarter, then you've got a whole quarter to figure it out rather than So a few days before the end of your quarter, and suddenly you've got a monster headache on your hands, and no one likes those. So yeah, certainly, certainly going for it, for the no, is something that doesn't feel intuitive, but certainly is important. And I think the other thing it helps to really do is to build trust. It shows that you are empathetic of the other individual's reasons for not doing something, and that also you're almost sharing that you're aware that they have agency that you simply don't have. And actually, you will be supporting them as well. You're not a given, you're not pushing it because you want to, but you actually kind of want to have impact for them. And so by giving the opt-out, it enables them to actually almost think through those things. If your questions are on point, it really kind of does build that relationship, but it also enables you to sort of qualify how strong that relationship is as well. Haven't had it yet, but I imagine it's a pretty strong indication if someone goes, yeah, you're right, George, let's not do it.

1:06:43 Scott Ingram: I'll see you out now.

1:06:44 George Mann: Yeah.

1:06:46 Scott Ingram: So George, what advice do you have for somebody that is just starting out in a sales career today?

1:06:52 George Mann: I think it's just not being afraid to throw yourself at it. I think, you know, putting yourself constantly putting yourself in uncomfortable situations, you know, turning up to your first meeting and being really ambitious about who that first meeting might be with, looking to, you know, prospect maybe in a very different way. We really are kind of owners of our own prospecting as well as obviously being the guardians of our existing relationships, being willing to try loads of different things in that space. And yeah, I guess identifying things that are going to to make you maybe feel uncomfortable, but continuing to push yourself regardless. And I think under that as well just comes, you know, I think we talk actually Multiverse, but it's something I've always thought was quite important, particularly I guess picked up from my time doing Teach First, was around this idea of humbleness and owning your seat. So, you know, really being able to take on feedback, even if maybe it hasn't been delivered in the best way, but being able to take on feedback and respond to it in the right way, taking the ego aside and thinking, what is this person sharing with me? Why do they think that's important? What's the impact of me not having done the things that maybe I should have or could have or in the ways I might have? And looking to use that as an opportunity to build yourself up. And that's a maxim of feedback is the breakfast of champions. I couldn't agree with more. And I guess the other one is another interesting idea that was shared with me just before I started in my sales role as well, actually, this idea of owning your seat. So it's this idea that, you know, you've got a seat, and at any one time, even if you've got your sort of 2.5-year tenure, or Scott, your 5-year one, that actually that seat is one that you're kind of renting, and you have to earn the right to stay in that seat, and you have to continue you to be better than anyone else who might want to be in that seat. But also, you know, at some point it is gonna be the right time for you to move that seat, but you want that seat to be better than when you started. And you want that seat to be more challenging to get into than when you started and more exciting than when you started and simply be kind of a greater seat than it was, not necessarily making it into a throne, but certainly, you know, owning your seat and feeling that kind of responsibility. This. And it goes down to, I guess, maybe a little bit of that new job feeling piece as well around actually changing the time zone, not thinking, not thinking of yourself as a tenured individual, but actually thinking of yourself in terms of days. What am I going to do today? And continuing to think of things in that way.

1:09:24 Scott Ingram: Love it. I usually follow up that question and ask what advice you would have for somebody that's further into their career and, you know, is either struggling or they're good, but they just haven't gotten to great. Does that advice change at all? It feels like you covered that pretty well too.

1:09:38 George Mann: Well, I mean, I guess if you've been struggling to steward your seat through kind of the things you've done, or indeed maybe a bit beyond your control, I think almost starting to think of in those terms is probably a piece of advice I'd give. And then I guess the feedback point as well, you know, have you kind of, have you actually gone out to take on feedback as to why things haven't quite gone so well? And the things that individuals can see about the way, you know, what your game is and where it can be. And, you know, it is uncomfortable to have those conversations sometimes, but actually, they're sometimes the best conversations you can simply have is with someone who you might not sort of have a natural flair with, or you might not have had some of the best experiences with, but taking that on. And I always like to validate feedback as well with kind of external opinions. So, Yes, you really definitely want a contextual internal opinion, but you certainly want to kind of reach out and to run through a situation with another person. I think not necessarily the more brains, but the right brains and other brains on the same problem is certainly going to help you. So I don't think the advice necessarily would be different. I just think the way it's kind of calibrated probably is a little bit different for an individual who's got a slightly longer tenure.

1:10:50 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you were recently named one of the top sales professionals in the UK, not just the best at Multiverse. I wonder what would you want to know from the top sellers in other organizations?

1:11:04 George Mann: Yeah, that's a good question. And I am competitive, Scott. So I'm actually quite happy to know that one or two of the other individuals who are quite close to me in that space actually aren't particularly good tennis players. So I'm not going to ask them for serving advice, but other things, I guess, is how… and actually I've got a strong relationship with a few of them. We've made a little bit of our own network over the last few years and spoken and kind of swapping tips and tricks. And it was an interesting validation point actually for us. But I think the thing is actually how other AEs are running their deal process. I find it fascinating hearing about kind of other approaches and methodologies and thoughts. I think how other individuals, and this is the one actually I think that I find most valuable, is how they prepare for what what we phrase often in Multiverse is penalty moments. So those key moments, whether it be in kind of an in-quarter deal that's about to slip, whether it be kind of your economic buyer meeting where you've spent months having thousands of conversations with loads of different individuals in an organization and you're ready to share the proposal to kind of get the rubber stamp. And the things that they do to prepare for those, the things they do to… and not just in a practicality sort of sense, of, oh, I kind of have a slide that's a bit like this, or I always have a briefing slide, etc. And I find those interesting, but as much as like, what are the things that you do to make sure you're in the right headspace going into it and that you're super present in the room and that you know you've kind of had impact? So I think the things that I find most valuable speaking to other sales professionals around is kind of, I guess, the very sort of personal part of selling, how you respond emotionally and how you kind of keep that in check, but also how you make sure you're kind of getting the best out of other people and you're being really sort of people smart, particularly around some very complex deal cycles or client setups as well. So that's the thing I think I find most valuable. And I guess one of the best sort of pieces of advice that I got in one of those conversations is around how to approach a conversation with an individual you've kind of been working with through through a deal, you're not actually quite sure why they're working with you. And I've kind of avoided that question a few times, but how to go about going to have that conversation, that was really telling. And I've implemented it a few times, but it's one that's, I think I've struggled in the past to actually understand how to unpick.

1:13:27 Scott Ingram: And what was that? What have you been trying on that side?

1:13:29 George Mann: Yeah. So I think the piece of advice that we kind of talked through was actually, you know, almost planning through It's difficult because it's getting the balance between kind of being inquisitive, being authentic, but also planning it in kind of a diary that most of us I'm sure have got, which is reasonably ramrode, but you come to it super present. Was was around you know it's a Friday call. There's always a Friday call that one. It's it's pick up the call, pick up the phone on a Friday. So maybe maybe kind of eleven o'clockish and ask them just ask really bluntly just ask them say I know. You're spending a lot of time working with me and clearly you really want this to happen. And I can understand that from an organizational point of view, this is something that's going to be super impactful. But actually I want to understand what's sort of in it for you. Where do you want this to take you? What are the things that you want to achieve from this? And they're quite simple questions. I'm sure a lot of people have had coaching on that and leadership have shared. But for me, I think that was, it was really, it was just really impactful. I got the advice at a time I needed it. And And I think it's really helped me enough, I guess, to my point earlier about taking process and playing with it, used it now kind of almost as part of the process, sort of plugging it in after the first few meetings where you know you've got an individual who's maybe below the line or indeed kind of above the line in a way. And in both of those, understanding kind of what their personal drivers are and where you might be able to kind of add that value, I think is something that once you become, I guess, more acquainted with a sort of specific process or playbook around the mechanisms of a deal, actually starting to think of all the people dynamics behind and underneath it as well.

1:15:00 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, great stuff. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but my favorite question to ask along those lines is I will kind of get them to visualize and say, hey, you know, George, if we were able to get together a year from today, right, and, and we were raising a glass and celebrating our success and having been able to get this done together, what specifically would we be celebrating? And I'll kind of ask them about you know, what it means to the organization, but then also talk about what it means to them. And then the other twist that I kind of put in there is, what do you think we had to overcome?

1:15:32 George Mann: Yeah, I'm actually writing that down. So that's going to be… I'm gonna be using that next week. Thank you, Scott. That's really valuable.

1:15:39 Scott Ingram: Absolutely. So what…

1:15:40 George Mann: and what's… by the way, can I ask you a question by reply, which is, I'd love to hear kind of what some of the answers to some of those questions have been. And and where it's gone well and maybe where it's gone a little bit unexpected, if you will?

1:15:53 Scott Ingram: Yeah, you know, I think a lot of surprising stuff tends to come out of that. I mean, where it goes well is you get some pretty deep insights into the personal impacts, right, which is what you're really after, right? So does this mean… is this a raise? Is this a KPI? Is this a promotion they're looking for? Is this a different direction they're looking to go in their career? If there's a really high level of trust, I've been able to get people to kind of share that they're planning their exit. And, you know, well, how does… and that's a, that's a huge thing to think through because now I've got to recognize, okay, this person might only be here halfway through this process.

1:16:31 George Mann: Yeah.

1:16:31 Scott Ingram: And so now partnering with them to help work through the other side of that, but, but really getting into kind of those risk factors, if you will, Also gets really interesting. And I often find it almost always comes down to people. It, there's always like, it starts to uncover some of the like politics that are happening behind the scenes that are really hard to get at and understand. So that's, that's where I often get a lot of really significant insights. And then the trick is, okay, how do I not only work with this person to get through and overcome some of those things, but Where else do I need to shore up relationships and build kind of things to address these different points? So sometimes there's a blocker that I really just need to get to know and understand and get their perspective and get the what's in it for them.

1:17:22 George Mann: Yeah, yeah, that's very understandable. It sounds like you execute those incredibly well as well.

1:17:27 Scott Ingram: I try. But I also want to come back to the 2 things that you mentioned that you were asking some of this other kind of cohort around, you know, just your own preparation for those, those tough meetings. And this really stuck out to me early in the conversation as well, this idea of what I would, what I would call inspiring the rest of your team, right? And getting them on board with all the work and the drudgery that you're going to subject them to bring everything across the line.

1:17:55 George Mann: Yeah, well, I mean, just on that directly, obviously, we try to avoid drudgery because no one responds well to it. But certainly, You know, it's, it's not an easy life in, in sales. It is a contact sport, right? So yeah, I think you have to spend the time figuring it out yourself first is, is the obvious thing, because no one else is kind of going to give it to you and say, oh, George, thanks so much for sort of, you know, involving me in this piece. So a few weeks in, it's, you know, it's really important because of blah. It's actually very much your job as an AE to, to be able to articulate that, whether it be you know, asking a CEO to come in to join a key client call where they've got multiple other things that they could be doing with their time, whether it's asking for marketing resource who again have got sort of their own plan, their own ambitions. So I think taking the time to think about, well, actually, and one of the questions I ask, and it probably links to what we just spoke about as well, which is understanding people's personal drivers, is actually internal personal drivers. So, you know, what are your KPIs as the different various teams, you know, what are the things you're really struggling with as teams, whether it be actually we don't have the right contact into these sorts of sectors, and clearly, you know, we've got existing accounts in these sectors, but we're struggling to get some traction with some of the other accounts or prospects that we could be working with in the sector with this type of product, or indeed we're finding that this competitor is someone who's kind of outstripping us in this space. So I think understanding, you know, other teams reasons is a good place to start and kind of always sort of building out from there. I think it's taking the time to then articulate that. And sometimes it's also building a narrative that you kind of are going to start to use before the moment of the ask. So I guess what I mean by that is making sure that in some way that it's starting to flag on people's radars. It's not just you talking about it, but perhaps it's other people talking about it as well. And so it's starting to become kind of put into people's psyche a bit before you kind of then set out the stall. And I think then when you set out the stall with the ask of, you know, going into a new business meeting, say, knowing that you're going to need to be doing something and pulling into additional resource, additional kind of experts, if you like, from maybe delivery space, or indeed it's the same with, you know, looking to do an additional ask away from business as usual from other teams, is just clarity. It's so easy and straightforward to give us advice but actually really difficult to implement. And a lot of that is around actually removing a lot of context. I think often it's really easy, particularly when it's your accounts and you're passionate about what you're doing and you really want to drive through it, is to really kind of over-labor the context and why it's important because of the context, etc. But actually stepping away and thinking, well, actually this is important because this client represents X amount of sort of the things that we do as an organization. And they as an organization are really passionate about this, and we're playing into that passion. And, you know, these individuals want to be doing this because this is where they're headed, and being able to articulate that through, as well as then how that's going to add value to your sort of internal stakeholders. So I guess a number of things I just shared there, Scott, but a great example, I work with a media organization who have really focused recently, they're in individual who I pinpointed just over a year ago now, who's very focused on project management and the value that can add into as a skill set into the media industry. And he was super passionate about banging the drum in an organization otherwise kind of very much focuses when it comes to skills around learning kind of the newest tricks in SEO and the wizziest things on sort of Google AdWords and Facebook ads, etc. But he was saying, no, this is the future of our industry, being able to deliver projects absolutely to excellence. And so kind of having that kind of conversation with him and continue to kind of understand why does he want to do that, and then underneath that working with our marketing teams, our events teams, and our customer success team to make sure that when he kind of stuck his neck out to work with us, if you like, against the tide, and he really looked to do things that probably were a little bit against the organizational hairs really, and particularly the timing at the beginning of lockdown, that we gave him that narrative to echo through about the things that we're having impact against, the NPS that he was seeing from their clients because of the quality of individuals who were learning those skills on accounts and how that differentiated from organizations, from teams who didn't have people who he'd put through kind of our training on accounts and continue to give him that. And to the point where, you know, we've built up a lot of heat and light for him, but also the people who've worked with him and worked, I guess, with me on the account as well have actually been able to achieve something quite substantive. We're at a strong percentage of that organization now who are going through our training. We've seen the impact that the organization has had in terms of NPS and where that's benchmarked them. And then actually, you know, he rang me the other Friday and almost did the inverse of those conversations we spoke about and your point around what you see in a year's time, because it was about a year's time. He said, George, I want to share some really positive news that actually off the back of what we're doing, I now have gained promotion. Actually, I've got the responsibility to build out a full PM capability within this kind of organization. So making sure that my internal stakeholders who are doing kind of what could have felt like quite piecemeal pieces… oh, let's just write a blog for this, you know, for this individual, let's call him Fred, you know, let's build a blog for Fred, can you build me a blog for Fred by Friday? And oh, can we do an event, can you do an event with Fred by next week? And I want it to be an hour and I want it to be XXXXX. And there's a point about being very sort of descriptive about what you're you want. But actually, we kind of made it very intentionally, made it so much more about more than that, which was let's really help to accelerate this person within his organization to bang the drum. And these are things that we're already managing to achieve, you know, as a startup organization. It's a big global company. We're actually doing these things. And so I guess through that is closing the circle around action and the impact and making sure individuals who are doing that are aware of it. And going in prior is actually, this is the aspiration here and really talking aspirationally and passionately about the things you're looking to do. I'll pause there before I kind of go into any more detail, but hopefully that kind of resonates and made sense.

1:23:58 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. It's really helpful. And I wonder, as we get ready to wrap up here, if there is… I mean, we've covered a ton of ground. If there's anything that you were hoping to talk about or a story you wanted to tell that somehow I just didn't quite prompt.

1:24:13 George Mann: I think I did just want to touch on, on the humbleness point with a slightly different angle as a kind of final before we wrap up, which is around, you know, as you move through and continue to, I guess, grow with the company and continue to kind of see and start to see sales success, it's really… I think it's so important to continue to be hungry but stay humble. And we talk about it a lot as a team, our leadership talk about it, but I guess that's something that I think is, like, I think to be really candid, at points I haven't quite got right. And I think there's some really interesting pitfalls, well, not interesting, really kind of dangerous pitfalls you can hit into if you start to let kind of complacency into the way you operate or in your game, or indeed kind of lean more on your experience than what you're actually doing and kind of use kind of wisdom as, oh, it'd be okay, we'll muddle through, I always do sort of thing. So I think that piece around the humbleness, I think, is something that maybe might… yeah, was kind of one thing I didn't quite maybe fully explain as much as I would have liked. And I think that's actually probably one of the most difficult things when you're starting to really see kind of sales success and you're starting to really kind of enjoy and be part of that and gain a lot of momentum and start to do the things that you'd hope you do is continuing to sort of head back to square one and continue to kind of in kind of the way you're operating and thinking and feeling as well.

1:25:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, that man, that's a really good point, right? Because it's not always permanent, right? You really have to be aware of, are you continuing to do some of the most fundamental things and not getting to that point that you're like, okay, well, I'm past that.

1:25:54 George Mann: Yeah, that's it. I mean, the All Blacks sum it up with sweep the sheds. If no matter how many kind of World Cups you've won and I'm not in any way sort of saying I've won any World Cups by any means, but, you know, the feeling of success can actually be, can be almost your worst enemy. And continuing to be happy to roll up your sleeves after the end of the game and sweep the sheds and do the kind of basics that kind of got you to a position where you're in a strong position, because it's so much more difficult to try to get back having kind of regressed than it is to just be really kind of religious about staying, staying humble.

1:26:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah, the way I always like to wrap this up is, again, we've covered a ton of ground, but I like to try and make it actionable for our listeners. So what would you challenge them to do over the course of the next, say, 7 to 10 days to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:26:42 George Mann: Yeah, it's a great question. So I think a very simple one is to write a Post-it note and put it on your laptop somewhere to say, own your seat. That's something that's like we've kind of touched on in loads of different ways today, but actually continue reminding yourself to own your seat. In terms of things that are actually going to have an impact in, I guess, in deals and in your quarters, it's probably around, you know, find the time this week to take a 2-hour block to replan and ideate at the beginning of that time, to really plan what you're going to do across that time and kind of that slow thinking piece we spoke about and that intentionality and calling your shots. Your ambitious shots, but calling your shots, and then execute against it religiously. Think about, you know, which days am I going to break up my day into a sequence of, you know, where I can at least, you know, a sequence of half an hour key conversations, or indeed, you know, 3 really important actions, and sort of build my day around those. And then I guess the third one is, and it might just be the way that I think, but We spoke about kind of my inbox piece, but actually think about what can I do to… I think particularly in the world of KV where we're still… we're moving towards hybrid, but there's a lot of kind of email traffic. Get rid of the noise. How can I kind of do that? And it might be that you look to kind of set up a bit of a WYSIWYG function where if you read an email, it goes straight to archive unless you action it, because that's going to help you continue to drive urgency. Seeing the things you're doing. And that sort of slow planning time I spoke about, those 2 hours or so, is going to make sure that, you know, the rest of your time is well spent. And then while you're in it, continue to dedicate to it, the things that you've really called your shots on, because you've already planned, you know, they're the right things.

1:28:27 Scott Ingram: I like it. That was a pretty good actionable recap, George. Thanks for the time.

1:28:31 George Mann: Pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community, powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.