107: From Sales Trainer to #1 Manufacturing Salesperson at Epicor

0:00 Scott Ingram: This episode is brought to you thanks to the generous support of Vidyard, Terryberry, and Alyce. To learn more about them and all of our sponsors who are supporting this show and this community, click over to top1.fm/sponsors. You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, I have definitely got an interesting story for you featuring Michael Harris. Michael went from being a sales trainer to a quota-carrying sales professional, having never sold tech before, and within 2 years became the top-performing manufacturing salesperson at Epicor. This should be fun. Welcome to the show, Michael.

0:58 Michael Harris: Thanks, Scott. I'm glad to be here. I've liked your show and I've liked you.

1:02 Scott Ingram: Excellent. Well, we're, we're really going to get to know each other here over the next… I, I have a feeling this could go a couple hours. I just feel it. There's a lot of backstory that you have, so this should be some fun. And for folks listening to this, if this is… if you're new to the show, it's worth noting that I only interview active quota-carrying sales professionals who are either the outright number one top performers in their companies, or they're at least in the top 1% inside a very large organization. And I deep trying to understand the habits, routines, and strategies they use to get there. So, Michael, with that, let's get started like we always do and talk about the top 3 things that you believe contributed the most to your success at Epicor.

1:45 Michael Harris: It's always hard to say it's these 3 things or I do this one thing because it's a lot of things and it changes as the months go by. One of them I think would be, you know, your mindset. You know, coming into a new company, having never sold technology before and having a fairly successful career and done relatively well, it's kind of humbling because you trip and fall and you make mistakes. You're learning a product that you don't really know. You're working in an environment that you're not familiar with. And, you know, you run into inevitable frustrations. And so I think one of the things that was very important to teach myself is to not get sucked into the drama and to sit on the couch watching the TV set instead of jumping in the TV into the drama so that you can keep your eye on the prize and just keep moving forward. So I think that was very important. And, you know, there were a few hiccups along the way, but I think mindset is, is very important and not getting swept up in, into the fear of producing, of feeling that you're not good enough and just sitting with customers and listening and having them tell you what you need to do to help them be successful without all of the external drama getting involved in and alienating you from the customer and trying to force you to do something to them and get them to do something versus just being calm and helping them do what they want to do. Does that make sense?

3:23 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it does. I love that, you know, because so often we listen with an intent to respond, right? It's what's the next move? How am I going to get them to say this or do that thing rather than actually hearing what they're saying, right?

3:36 Michael Harris: Yeah. And it's hard to do because there are a lot of external pressures in sales and there are numbers beside your name each and every quarter. And there are weekly calls in terms of what's happening with the deals. And there is a huge temptation to try to force things to occur. And I think that just messes you up.

3:58 Scott Ingram: Oh, we're going to come back to that. I don't want to disrupt your top 3, but we're definitely coming back to how not to kind of force things. Because I think it's one of the classic sort of traps, right?

4:10 Michael Harris: And I fall into it all the time.

4:11 Scott Ingram: Right, right.

4:12 Michael Harris: I'm not always successful.

4:13 Scott Ingram: Yeah. I mean, you know, setting up that ability to have, be able to be patient and let things breathe and not force it because of the dang number that hangs over your head. Clearly you've done something right though, because you ended up on top.

4:27 Michael Harris: I did. I did at 150% in COVID.

4:31 Scott Ingram: I love it.

4:31 Michael Harris: And you, you check, you check, Scott. You don't take people's word for it. I want to see proof.

4:38 Scott Ingram: Well, you know, I've, I've gotten a little bit burned before. Yeah, it is. You know, I do, I do do a little bit of verification to make sure that the people I talk to really are top performers and don't just say that they are. So, well, let's keep going with your top 3 and we'll circle back on some of these.

4:55 Michael Harris: That's one of them. Another one that I, and it's kind of the same thing, but I'm a huge believer in that, you know, things happen so fast in a sales cycle and there's so many nuances that go on and so much happens below the conscious level at the subconscious level when customers are buying that I don't think you can think your way through a sales call. I think you have to feel your way through it and to feel your way through your sales call, you need to be able to drop into your intuition and your experience bank and you need to build that experience. Bank. And to do that, I think you need to be curious and take the time to really think things through. So I think that is a really huge, huge point. So that's kind of number one. Number 2 would be, you know, I think it helps to be creative, to try different things and things that you find of interest. I mean, before, when we spoke briefly before the podcast, you felt that, you know, there's not necessarily one thing everyone does. It's just people find out how to be themselves. And so I love to to be creative and try different things because that keeps me engaged and interested in what I do. So one of the things I did is I went out and interviewed a lot of customers and I spoke to them on Skype and then I would record those calls and then I would make short little minute and a half videos about why they bought Epicor and I might break them up into 3 or 4 short little videos and then I was able to use those in my sales cycle and bless Epicor that they allowed me to do that because you could see a big company saying, hey, you're not allowed to do that. You can't share that content. But they did, and I found that to be very, very effective. And then the third, and I guess I already went over this, is, you know, you got to be resilient and, you know, you don't get pulled down into the drama and you kind of stay with the pain and sit with it and then get to the truth.

6:55 Scott Ingram: We could probably talk for an hour about just these, but I want to come back to the specifics of the videos you were doing and how you were setting up those conversations, right? Because I think there's so much power in what we say is going to get taken with a grain of salt, right? We, everybody knows what our position is and where we have a vested interest. But if you can get some peer-to-peer selling going on, if you can have customers advocating for your product, that kind of shifts the game. How did you set that up? I mean, go walk us through that.

7:29 Michael Harris: Sure. Well, I don't think you show up with a video camera and lights because they're immediately going to say, oh, I need to have permission to do this. So often I call up and I say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm new in the territory, or, you know, I know you through so-and-so. I'd love to have a chat with you to find out why you bought Epicor. And I'd like to record this. I might share it with some customers, you know, yada, yada, yada. It's not going to go up on YouTube or, you know, it's not going to go on our website. You don't need to worry about that. But I just like sharing these customer stories with other customers that I speak with. You try and make it sound as innocuous as possible so it doesn't have to go through their legal department. And then you just have a conversation and you're curious and you care. And so you want to hear their views, you know, why did you buy Epicor? Why did you buy us versus someone else? And you just kind of follow your nose and see where it takes you. And then, you know what it's like from doing these podcasts. And then you'll… well, not you, you probably don't do this, but you know, you leave 90% of what you discussed on the editing floor and you put something together.

8:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I leave 4% on the editing floor. Video really is a powerful tool that you can use all throughout your sales cycle. The easiest way I've found to both create and send those videos is with Vidyard. Their free Chrome plugin allows you to easily record your screen or yourself and then quickly add it to an email. You'll even get notified when your videos get watched. Check it out today. top1.fm/v will take you straight there. And now back to my conversation with Michael. I'm curious about, especially, I know that you didn't come from a tech background, so I imagine your learning curve was, was kind of steep through this.

9:17 Michael Harris: Oh, it was, it was really hard, really hard. And normally I like to, I'd almost like to do my own demos. I'd almost like to do a lot of those things and I wasn't able to do that. And it was, it was pretty intimidating at first.

9:31 Scott Ingram: But I wonder how much, I mean, obviously you used the snippets of these conversations in your sales process, but how much did it help you in just your own learning and your own understanding, hearing directly from customers why they bought, why they made these decisions, all that kind of stuff?

9:48 Michael Harris: Well, here's a great proof point. So at our sales conference, after having only been at the company for 2 years, they picked me as one of the people who was able to sell quite effectively against one of our biggest competitors. And I gave a presentation. At our sales conference in terms of how I was able to do that. And one of the ways that I was able to do that was by getting information from customers and then putting that down on video and then sharing that with other customers. And it was, it was pretty powerful.

10:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, let's put this in just a little bit of context. Talk about exactly what your role is and maybe just a little bit about Epicor for those who aren't based in Austin where Epicor is based. So, so here I am where Epicor is, but you're in Toronto.

10:34 Michael Harris: I'm in Toronto. Yeah. So I got in touch with Epicor because they were a customer of mine. So was SAP. And there was a regional VP of sales that I was quite friendly with, you know, over the years, 10 years, we developed quite a friendship and, you know, we were talking and he said, you know, why don't you come and join us? And I was looking for a new challenge and I'd heard, I taught so many people in technology to sell technology, but I'd never sold it before, but I was in a business that was somewhat similar selling finance and you know, having an expert in the room with you and, you know, you really being the business person. So, you know, from that sales standpoint, it wasn't that different. Just the learning curve from technology was, was quite difficult. And Scott, I've forgotten your question.

11:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So the question is just kind of giving us some context around what your role is, who Epicor is.

11:22 Michael Harris: So my role is I'm an upper mid-market territory manager. So I am a salesperson, a quota-carrying salesperson. I have a region which is Eastern Canada.

11:32 Scott Ingram: Excellent. And Epicor is in the ERP space.

11:34 Michael Harris: Epicor is in in the ERP space. They're one of the top 5. It's a billion-dollar company, and the manufacturing product that I sell is 60% of our revenue.

11:43 Scott Ingram: Excellent, excellent, excellent. And then you, you already kind of started to quantify your results, and you talked about being 150% of plan. Is there any other color that you would add to that?

11:53 Michael Harris: No, 150%. So 150%, I was the number one person.

11:58 Scott Ingram: Fantastic. So here's what I've been dying to ask. And this is maybe more than just the origin, but let's start there. I always like to ask about people's origin stories and how they got into sales. And in your case, I'm interested not only how did you get into sales, how did you get into sales training? Walk us through this evolution.

12:17 Michael Harris: Well, I mean, I got into sales because, you know, you're in university and you're wondering what you do next. My mother was in sales. She was a real estate agent. I got my Canadian securities course my last year of university, and then I worked on Bay Street, which is Toronto's Wall Street. And I did that for 6 months and built up my commission statements and got my Volkswagen Beetle and drove to New York City and got a job with Merrill Lynch. And I worked there for a couple of years and then I worked on my Chartered Financial Analyst program and then moved to London, England and was in institutional equity sales for around 10 years. And then I became president of a finance company. Sales role and did that for, you know, a few years and then took kind of a mini retirement in Argentina after going from Toronto to New York to London, England. And then I came back to Toronto and I thought, what do I want to do? And I wanted to have my own business. And I thought, well, what's a difficult thing to sell? And I thought, well, sales training is. So I got into the sales training space. I did that for around 10 years, wrote a book, got published in the Harvard Business Review. My article was one of the most downloaded and tweeted articles in 2015. And then, yeah, so that's my story.

13:35 Scott Ingram: Excellent. Well, we're going to dig all of that up. I know the book is Insight Selling. We'll find the Harvard Business Review article and we'll have links to all of that at top1.fm/whatever your episode number is, which I've, as usual, lost track of, or top1.fm/michael-harris. We'll take our listeners there so they can go check that out. You said something that I thought was fascinating. You said it as a throwaway line. You said you became the president of a finance company. And that was a sales role. Talk about that some more.

14:04 Michael Harris: Well, I joined this company as a salesperson. I stumbled at first, of course, as you always do. It wasn't easy, but within 2 years I was running the European operations and then they brought me back to run the head office in New York City. And I was the president of the company and part owner. And it was really a sales role selling kind of structured financial products to help companies avoid losses. And it was somewhat of a similar role to selling ERP.

14:35 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So let's talk about this last step though. So you spent 10 years as a sales trainer. What had you decide, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to go do this. I'm going to go walk the walk rather than just talking the talk.

14:48 Michael Harris: So what do you mean by that? What's walking the walk?

14:50 Scott Ingram: You went into a quota-carrying sales role.

14:53 Michael Harris: Oh, I see.

14:54 Scott Ingram: You went from telling people how to sell to let me go actually do it.

14:57 Michael Harris: So what happened was that, you know, after 2008, you know, the market kind of closed before you could kind of do e- marketing and get quite a following through that. And then in kind of 2015, I found that people were doing fewer and fewer live sales trainings, and I remember working a lot at SAP and doing a lot of online stuff, and I just didn't like the online training as much. And I started to feel that the doors that were open to training, a lot of VPs were concerned with hitting quarter-to-quarter targets and not as interested in developing their teams as they'd like to be because a lot of the training that I was doing wasn't just how to sell, but it was trying to create the content to help people to sell. A lot of the customer-based stories, trying to make people more knowledgeable about what they were doing so they wouldn't just tell one story. They might have a bank of 8 or 9 stories in their mind and then they'd start commingling those together so that it would give them that experience base that's more subconscious than conscious that they can draw on in a sales call and not be thinking their way through the sales call, but feeling their way through. And that's what I was always trying to do for people. But when it moved from being kind of live training to more online, that became more difficult to do and I was enjoying it less. So I wanted to get into a role where you're making a real difference and selling ERP sounded like a hard thing to sell. So I found that attractive and I always wanted to give it a shot.

16:33 Scott Ingram: That's fascinating. Do hard things. How much of your experience as a trainer informed the way that you sell today?

16:45 Michael Harris: I worked for not solution selling, but the next generation, which was customer-centric selling. But we used to joke around and say sometimes you'd have people in your class who would become solution selling Nazis. And what we mean by that is they would follow your training to the letter and it wouldn't work. Because people don't want you to do anything to them. They want you to help them buy. And so did I follow my sales training examples to the nth degree? No, but I followed the principles. And so, you know, I went out and I interviewed customers and I had open conversations and I pulled out what I thought was interesting and I shared that with customers and I helped them buy. So all those principles are there, but I didn't follow everything to the letter, if that makes any sense. I didn't follow a specific regimented system.

17:35 Scott Ingram: Well, it makes all the sense in the world to me, right? Because I think that when you look at any, any sales methodology or training or anything else, it never works the way it's supposed to theoretically in like a pristine lab environment.

17:53 Michael Harris: No, it's almost like when MMA came out and, you know, you had all these guys saying, well, if a guy comes at you like this and swings really wide, then you do this. And then you see them get into the real cage and they get their face beaten in. You know, I think Mike Tyson had a great great line. What was it? You, you can have a strategy until you get punched in the mouth.

18:12 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I love that. No, that's…

18:14 Michael Harris: you can have sales training strategy until you get punched in the face by the customer.

18:18 Scott Ingram: That's, that's it, right? I mean, that's such a, that's such a great analogy. And the way I always think about it is you've got to kind of take the core principles, the elements, and you just have to kind of work them into your own approach and your own style. That's the only way that this works. And I love that you called them like the Nazis of sales. Like, oh, you have to see it this way. It doesn't work ever.

18:42 Michael Harris: But I'll tell you what, when you're running those classes and you're looking into people's eyes, you know, you kind of run those classes to try and help the bottom 50%. But inevitably, you just help the top 20% become better because you'll just look around the room and you'll see a bright spark in their mind, their eye, and you just see them taking what they need and what they want and killing it. You know, Yeah.

19:05 Scott Ingram: So does sales training work then?

19:07 Michael Harris: I think it's pretty effective for making the top people better.

19:12 Scott Ingram: So what are we supposed to do about the rest?

19:14 Michael Harris: Help them.

19:15 Scott Ingram: How?

19:15 Michael Harris: With ongoing coaching and inspiring them to be better and to be curious and to work things out.

19:23 Scott Ingram: Yeah. I have kind of this emerging theory and I may start rolling out pieces of it over time. We'll see.

19:29 Michael Harris: No, I'd love to hear that. I mean, this is you and I talking, right?

19:33 Scott Ingram: Well, so I'm starting to think about you know, the bigger picture of what is the Sales Success Community, right? What, what are we about? What is, what is this? What is this thing? And what are we trying to do? And I'm starting to think more broadly about the ecosystem. And my theory is basically this in a nutshell. I believe that there are 2 types of companies and there are 2 types of sales professionals. And on the company side, and unfortunately, I think the the people that I want to interact with are in the minority on both sides. So this is probably a horrible business plan, but I believe that there's a set of companies that see their sales force as an asset. They see humans, right? And they believe in the development of those individuals and of that team and of the results that that breeds long-term. And so you, with that, they're making investments, they're developing good career paths, are helping people achieve what they want to achieve. And when they do, they get the results that they want. Then there's other companies, right? Which is like, oh, we see our salespeople as a means to an end. They're a number, they're expendable. I think we've all seen all the horror stories that happen with that. When it comes to sales professionals, I think there's 2 types also. And we're, you know, 25, 20-some-odd minutes into this. Our people are still listening, right? There's this group that we think of this as a craft, right? This is truly a profession. We believe in growth. We believe in ourselves. We're investing in ourselves and want to better ourselves and better our results and better what we produce for our customers and for our companies. And then there's a whole lot of other salespeople who, you know, it's like, yep, that's my job. It's how I pay my bills. There's no real drive and motivation, and I don't know that there's There's some that will make that transition, but I really believe that though the two growth-oriented, the companies and those individuals, they deserve each other because too often I see great, the true sales professionals, but they land at the wrong kind of company who doesn't care about them and bad things ensue.

21:51 Michael Harris: Or there's that kind of beautiful culture that can exist in the model that you're talking about, where not only do they care about the salespeople, but they care about the customer. And I think that's critically important because if you really put pressure on your salespeople, they're going to go out and do bad things to customers.

22:09 Scott Ingram: That's it. Right. And the other thing is like the great companies deserve the great salespeople. They shouldn't end up with the people who are just mailing it in, who don't care.

22:18 Michael Harris: Because there's a great culture there. You know, the funny thing is, even though, you know, I was the top salesperson this year and we have some really, really good people at Epicor, not just good salespeople, but nice people, but some pretty sharp people. But I remember my manager saying to me, so, you know, have you worked out what you're going to make? I mean, we're in the 4th quarter and you've done this. And I was like, no, I don't want to know. What do you mean you don't want to know? I worked it out last night for you. I said, I don't want to know. It's going to put me in a bad headspace, man.

22:47 Scott Ingram: That's… I totally identify with that. Right.

22:50 Michael Harris: I just, I didn't even know how much I'd done. And then he'd say, well, what are your goals? And it's like, well, I don't really have any, you know, I just want to help my customers buy and, you know, Yeah.

23:00 Scott Ingram: Oh, we're okay. We're coming back. We're coming back to that. This is probably as good a place as any to tell you about Terryberry because not all sales professionals are motivated primarily or exclusively by cash. Oftentimes it's the rewards and recognition that come into play, and that's what Terryberry does. They have a recognition platform that's all about rewarding top performers who are doing the right things and producing great results. If you believe like I do that recognition can have a material impact in driving performance, then take a look at Terryberry. You can learn more at top1.fm/terryberry. That's T-E-R-R-Y-B-E-R-R-Y. But before we go there, sure, we were talking about kind of your career, and, and it's, it's sort of an interesting evolution. You've seen and done a lot of different things, both in different industries and different geographies and, and all of this stuff. Knowing all that you know If you were starting over today, what would you do? What would you do differently?

24:02 Michael Harris: I think when I first went into sales, I was a little bit insecure. I went into it because I wanted to make money and maybe to, you know, impress my parents and my friends. And so you go out and you, you try to sell and you try to do things to people to foster your own ends. And I think if I was to do it again, And I'd rather do it from kind of a state of being and being comfortable with myself and helping the customer achieve their ends and really doing the right thing.

24:37 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So, I mean, that ties back to what you're talking about with mindset too, right? And that changes the way that you listen.

24:45 Michael Harris: Customers feel it, I think, you know, I mean, I used to work so hard and when I started out at Merrill Lynch, I was always in the top 20%. I've always been in the top 20% everywhere I've been, but if you're just hanging on into the top 20%, you're making money, but you're not making a lot of money. And it's a hard life. It's a grind. And no one likes to grind. I mean, I'm not saying sales is easy. Sales is hard. But there's, there's a difference between doing something that you don't want to do because you're doing something to someone else and just doing something, doing the right thing. And it just, there's not that resistance. It doesn't feel like you have one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake and it's exhausting.

25:29 Scott Ingram: Ooh, good. Another good analogy. I think of it, I mean, I think in simplest terms, it's the difference between doing something to someone and doing something for them.

25:38 Michael Harris: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And that's really true. And, you know, we probably don't want to go down this track, but you could almost think of sales as kind of a, almost like a spiritual exercise, you know, where each deal breaks you. And instead of getting beaten down by it, and we've seen people who've been selling for a long time, they kind of get beaten down, just allow the sale to break you into 1,000 pieces and then you kind of regroup and transcend and move on, you know?

26:08 Scott Ingram: What's so ironic in that is that I know you discovered the podcast because you listened to the episode with Justin Bridgemohan, who like, I think that was my 3rd episode ever. And Justin is like a Zen master of sales and you're starting, you're reminding me of him in just that mindset. Must be something in the water in Toronto.

26:28 Michael Harris: Maybe it is. Yeah.

26:32 Scott Ingram: So let's talk about the drive part of this. So you said that, you know, you don't have goals, you know, you're not motivated by the money. What motivates you? What's pushing you to do what you do?

26:44 Michael Harris: So I think it's to try and be better. And, you know, my sales manager did a training that was pretty courageous of them. It was, it was pretty out there, but we were going over some of our goals and my goal was to try to be equanimous in sales.

27:00 Scott Ingram: Okay.

27:01 Michael Harris: Just be calm and do the job, but be calm, be zen, to not get swept up into the drama, to listen to the customer and to just be, be calm and be present as opposed to writing down your goals, putting stuff on your vision board and wanting to achieve this because then you'll be successful. Just feeling successful as you are. And being calm.

27:30 Scott Ingram: Man, this is fascinating because this conversation is coming to me at just the right time because one of the things that I am starting to get into is just developing a bit of a meditation practice, right? For really for that reason, right? Like just trying to be a little bit more in the moment, a little more relaxed, a little more kind of go with the flow and not let things push you to the extremes, which, I mean, it's, it's so easy to ride the sales roller coaster of emotions.

27:59 Michael Harris: Oh man, tell me about it. I mean, we actually had our CEO talk at our Sales Summit and, you know, I kind of liked him because he was, he was very genuine. And someone said, well, how do you find being in sales? Because he used to be an engineer before. And he said, well, I struggle a bit with the emotional roller coaster of sales, you know. And I think if my next book would be on that is how can you be calm and how can you kind of happily achieve in sales instead of achieve to be happy? Because I'll tell you what, I hit number 1 this year and 150% of quota and I made some pretty good money and it didn't make me that happy. I think you got to enjoy what you're doing.

28:40 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So what does make you happy?

28:42 Michael Harris: I don't like the prospecting side. I'll tell you that right here and now. I think it's a lot of work for very little return, but you know, you got to do it. You got to do what you got to do. But getting involved in deals and connecting with people and just listening to them. You know, I have an expression, you know, let the deal be and it'll speak to me. And it's almost like you're led in the deal and there's a lot of friction at first. And then the more and more you can speak to them, the more and more you can adjust your approach and recalibrate. It's almost like things start becoming really super calm in the deal. And then it's almost like it sinks deeper and deeper into them and then it's It's like, boom, the deal's done.

29:22 Scott Ingram: So how does that happen in reality?

29:25 Michael Harris: So it happens in reality by, you know, I remember speaking to our VP of Sales talk and, you know, you always learn from people. And I remember him saying, you know, where we do our best is in the gray areas because we'll work hard to get the customer there. And I thought, okay, so each and every deal I went to, I would really listen to the customer. And sometimes what I would hear from the customer was that one of the things that was most important to them was an area that may maybe we didn't have that much capability, but I would focus in on that and I would do the work. And, you know, with maybe 3 of my deals last year, you know, we created new products for the customer. So how does it work? By listening to the customer and then finding out those 3 or 4 really big levers that are super important to them and really focus on those, because otherwise you can drown people with way too much information. And focusing on 3 or 4 core things and doing them really, really well. And then, you know, tying it up with a bow and the customer feels that you've really understood them and you've come back and you've done an amazing job on that. And you've recalibrated 6 or 7 times because they've told you what they like and they don't like. And then in the end, you know, you're there.

30:41 Scott Ingram: So in those, particularly the early meetings, I'm guessing that these are, they're really just great discovery calls, right? Because you don't have the agenda. You're not working to have those answers and respond.

30:54 Michael Harris: I don't have a sheet in front of me. I mean, you kind of do. I mean, I remember we did a sales training and I was trying to follow it and I kept tripping on my feet. And then it's almost like, okay, you take it, you tear it up, you throw it in the corner and you still use some of this stuff, but you just listen and follow your feeling of where you're going. That's warm, you know?

31:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah. But what I'm getting at is your response. Is that happening later? So are you having that conversation to just sort of understand and then taking some time to sort of think and process and coming back?

31:29 Michael Harris: Or I'll come back immediately. You know, I'll just, I'll just listen and then trust I'll know what to say when they finish speaking. And, and generally you do. And then if you don't, you tell them you'll come back. But I think they get a feeling of calmness from you and that you care. And that you're not trying to push something on them. Yeah.

31:50 Scott Ingram: So maybe this will be an example of this. Maybe it'll be something else, but I'm curious, what's your favorite sales story?

31:57 Michael Harris: What do you mean by sales story?

31:59 Scott Ingram: Maybe it's a tale of a particular deal.

32:01 Michael Harris: I just had one and I was working with a customer, a large customer in the kind of the automotive sector. And we had worked on the deal for a long time and we were up against Microsoft. And I really felt we were way, way ahead of them. And I think we were. And then, you know, project management, they weren't seeing what they wanted. They saw something from a partner on their side. And, you know, one of the very influential people there liked it more. And we'd invested a year in this sales cycle and, you know, probably had about, you know, 40 meetings with them and we'd invested a ton of money. And I was thinking, man, oh man, we're in the last month of the year. We want to get this closed by the end of the year. And this deal is about to go south. And I remember talking to the key person and saying, well, I've heard now that, you know, project management is incredibly important to you. Yes, it is. It's… and you've told me it's the most important thing. Yes, it is. And I said, and I've heard that you like, you know, this partner solution more than ours. And he said, yes, we do. And I thought, okay, I'm in crazy land. You know, what am I going to do in crazy land? And so I just thought, and I was quiet, and I It just came up. And I said, well, I think you should buy Microsoft then. And he said, so you're pulling out of the deal? And I said, well, I have no idea why I'm in this deal. Why don't you help me? Why am I in this deal? Why are you even looking at us? And then he came back and he said, well, we like your manufacturing capabilities more and this, this, and this. And it's like, oh gosh, thank God I'm not in crazy land anymore.

33:38 Scott Ingram: So you let them sell themselves?

33:40 Michael Harris: I guess, but I'll tell you what, saying I think you should buy that, that once I said it, I thought, I don't believe I just said that, because you've invested like 11 months in the deal. And, you know, it's not a great story when you say, you know, we've wasted all that money and we lost the deal, is it?

33:58 Scott Ingram: Well, and I think that perfectly takes us back to what you were talking about before with the pressure of the numbers. And this is a perfect example of that, right? It's getting to be the end of the year, right? I'm sure that the deal made a meaningful impact in where you ended up.

34:14 Michael Harris: Biggest deal.

34:15 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And I think you…

34:17 Michael Harris: it just felt like the right thing to say. Do you know what I mean?

34:21 Scott Ingram: Yeah. But okay.

34:22 Michael Harris: So how many people would do that?

34:24 Scott Ingram: Well, that's what I'm trying to get to is the different ways in responding, because I think it's almost, again, it's sort of the Zen thing. I'm a big fan of David Allen. So my whole productivity process…

34:37 Michael Harris: Getting Things Done.

34:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah. My whole productivity process is centered centered on getting things done. And one of the things I remember him talking about is he would talk about mind like water. And he would use like these different pebble and boulder analogies. He's like, so if your mind is like water and somebody throws a pebble in, you know, it's a blip, like no big deal. You respond in kind and then the water's smooth again. And when you throw a boulder in the water, it goes kaboosh and it's, you know, it's disruptive, but you know, then it settles down Again, I think in this type of scenario where there's just all of this pressure, right? This is a big deal. It's make or break my year kind of a thing. It feels like we're losing. I think there's the immediate reaction is like, oh my God! I'm like gonna tense up and what do I say?

35:23 Michael Harris: Fight flight.

35:24 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and the other side of that is because I I think what I heard you say before is also just kind of removing your your. Yourself from that and not taking this personally and not panicking so that you can respond accordingly.

35:40 Michael Harris: You respond from a deeper, more intelligent self.

35:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

35:45 Michael Harris: Than your lizard brain. And so I just sat there and I didn't say anything for a second and I tried to be still because remember my goal was to try and be equanimous. And that comment just came to me. I didn't think it. I just felt it and it came up to be the right thing to say because it felt like I was in, in crazy land and you can't sell in crazy land. Do you know what I mean?

36:08 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, I do, I do. So given all of that…

36:12 Michael Harris: so I thought that was a cool story.

36:14 Scott Ingram: That's a great story. And given all of these adventures, what are you most proud of?

36:19 Michael Harris: I think I really liked having… and I know this is ego-based and I'm not perfect, and you know, when I talk about being a equanimous, I do bite my nails. So there's a contrast for you. But getting that article in the Harvard Business Review, I thought was pretty cool.

36:37 Scott Ingram: That is pretty cool. I'm eager to read that. I'm eager to share that with everyone.

36:41 Michael Harris: And my book. I was proud of my book because that sold over 20,000 copies. And so I thought that was pretty good. And even with my book, it kind of goes back to this. I remember eating a lot of information that was outside of my immediate domain and I just felt like a voracious appetite to consume information. And then I kind of swallowed it, metastasized it. And then it was almost like I was having a baby and the book was coming and it came, you know?

37:12 Scott Ingram: It's funny.

37:14 Michael Harris: It's almost like it wrote itself.

37:16 Scott Ingram: Oh, well, I don't know that I've always had that. Well, my experience is different. I think of myself, I'm like the Tom Sawyer of authors because I get all of my friends to write my books for me. But it is, I mean, this is not a fair comparison for The the women in the audience, but you know I I think giving birth is somewhat analogous, right? It's a many months long process. There's parts of it that are very painful, and I'm actually convinced after my first book for a variety of of issues I actually had postpartum depression.

37:48 Michael Harris: Hmm, and why is that?

37:50 Scott Ingram: Oh, it's a that's a really long story.

37:53 Michael Harris: Okay.

37:53 Scott Ingram: Somebody somebody told me my my baby was ugly and we had to put it in a corner for a few months, and and you know just having done all of that work and having this great launch plan, they're like yeah don't. Do that. Wait there. I was like, what?

38:06 Michael Harris: No, I, I hear you.

38:07 Scott Ingram: I hear you. So what, what about the flip side? So what is the hardest part? What challenges you the most right now?

38:17 Michael Harris: Having a zero next to my name and building my pipeline.

38:20 Scott Ingram: And given your sales cycles, and I mean, you're in big enterprise sales, these things take time. How long is that zero gonna, gonna sit there? How long are you gonna have to contend with that?

38:31 Michael Harris: Hopefully not very long. Hopefully next quarter I'll get something nice coming through. I mean, I like to do at least a good deal a quarter. Otherwise you think, have you lost that magic feeling? Because the way I did it last year was 5 big deals.

38:44 Scott Ingram: Okay.

38:45 Michael Harris: Because I do, I do the upper market.

38:47 Scott Ingram: So yeah, I want to come, I want to come back to kind of the pipeline side of things and how you manage that so that you're getting kind of the deal.

38:55 Michael Harris: It's not my strength. I'll tell you that.

38:59 Scott Ingram: But I think you're on a little bit earlier fiscal year or later fiscal year, however that people want to, want to think about that. The bulk of the rest of us are coming up on that calendar is going to turn over and we're all going to have that zero next to our name. How are you putting up with that? And, and again, in your case, knowing that it might be a zero for a couple of months.

39:19 Michael Harris: So I'm working on a webinar right now on a new feature that we have that's pretty cool. And so with my BDR, the guy who helps me book meetings, we're working together on that and, you know, trying to fill the room and work on a new offering, which is always fun. And so that is happening December 1st. So, you know, that's 2 months into the new year and I should have a lot of people in the room for that. And so that should take care of my pipeline.

39:49 Scott Ingram: Okay.

39:49 Michael Harris: So I kind of planned it and got motivated and I'm right into it. So that's why we're meeting tonight.

39:56 Scott Ingram: 6:30. Right, right. On a Friday, because we're on a Friday night, because we're nuts. We should be drinking, I think. I can… I contemplated it. I was like, you know, this would be the episode that I should have a glass of wine. But then I thought, yeah, but people listen to this while they're working out early in the morning, and that maybe doesn't make very much sense.

40:17 Michael Harris: No, I might start slurring my words or fall asleep. So there you go.

40:22 Scott Ingram: So when it comes to your pipeline, and I mean, especially when you're working larger deals that take some time, I think one of the challenges that a lot of people struggle with is kind of the peaks and valleys that, that can happen, right? Like, okay, I've got this pipeline.

40:37 Michael Harris: Tell me about it. When you're, when you're working big deals, you think it seems to be going reasonably well, but what if I lose this deal? Like the hole it's going to make in your number is huge. It's not like you do a deal a week and you lose one and, you know, you've, you've lost a small percentage, like you could lose 20, 25% if it's a big one, 30, 40% of your year. Yeah.

41:00 Scott Ingram: So, so given that dynamic, how are you kind of balancing the prospecting? How are you trying to just stay ahead of the pipeline game so that you're in a good spot?

41:11 Michael Harris: So you're, you're very process orientated, aren't you?

41:14 Scott Ingram: A bit. Yes.

41:15 Michael Harris: I'm not. So I work in spurts, fits and starts. So, you know, I'm working on this webinar and that's all I'm working on. I'm working on that pretty hard because I find it interesting right now. So I work in fits and starts, you know, at the last quarter I had 2 huge deals happening. I worked almost exclusively on those and ignored everything else. So now I'm paying for it, but that's how I work.

41:42 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

41:42 Michael Harris: Everyone's different, right?

41:44 Scott Ingram: Well, that's it. I mean, that is the point. If there's, if there's anything that people take away from having these conversations is There's no one way, is there? So different, right? There's, there are people listening to this going, Michael is way too calm.

41:59 Michael Harris: Well, I'm not always calm. That's the beautiful thing about what you do is you have, it's not like you're having people that have thought through and rehearsed their spiel and they're giving a set pattern of conversation where everything sounds perfect. You're listening to real people talk about running a real business. And you're hearing enough different people that you can pick up different things from different people and say, yeah, that works for me, or, oh man, that's not how I want to live my life.

42:30 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. So what drives then kind of the fits and starts? What launches you off on, okay, I'm committing to this particular project or effort?

42:40 Michael Harris: I think you feel the pain of a lack and you kind of sit with it and then you get the answer in terms of what you need to do. So I, you know, after the big year, I felt the pain of the, you know, the big zero and you let it sink in and then you get creative and you think of a way to fix it.

43:01 Scott Ingram: All right. So this is going to be the most fun transition ever given the way you just set this up because I love to dig into people's process and routine and how they structure their day. So I have a feeling I'm going to get a completely different set of ideas from the way that you do. So here's the way I typically ask this. The alarm clock goes off. Tell us what time that happens and give us kind of the blow-by-blow through your day until your head hits the pillow.

43:31 Michael Harris: Well, it depends. It depends what I'm into. So, you know, I get up at 6:30, have coffee with my wife. We go cycling after about 10K or 20K. I come back, breakfast. I'll meditate for around 10 minutes. And then I started around 8:30. And if I'm working on deals, you know, you kind of get swept up into that. That and you kind of know what to do. It's not like I take extensive lists. You just, I just kind of know what to work on. And when I'm working on a campaign like this, normally that's all I work on. And so I might work on that for a month, you know, just killing it every day and just working on that. That's how I work. I work in batches. Maybe I wish I could work a little bit on each piece all the time. So I keep it even, but I don't work that way.

44:25 Scott Ingram: Your process and your selling approach sounds very… if I were to give it a word, I would just say it's sort of intuitive.

44:32 Michael Harris: It's totally intuitive.

44:34 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Like here's, here's the thing I need to work on.

44:36 Michael Harris: Although my mind is quite process orientated. So I think I don't need that because in the back of my mind, I'm always kind of working out, you know, who I need to call, what I need to do. And having said that, I do do once a week those Dave Allen Getting Things Done fun sheets with, you know, the 3 big rocks for the week.

44:53 Scott Ingram: Awesome.

44:53 Michael Harris: So I do do that. And I have Excel spreadsheets of my top, you know, deals or prospects that I'm working on. And I have that sitting on my desk because I don't like going into a CRM system because things kind of get lost in the ether. And I highlight who I need to call this week. And then I do keep the notes extensively in the CRM, but I just like to have that list by me all the time so I can be thinking in the back of my mind what value I can add to the customer. Each week or each day.

45:23 Scott Ingram: If you're on a remote meeting, are you taking notes by hand or on your computer?

45:29 Michael Harris: I wish I took notes by computer, but I do take them by hand. And so after the meeting, I do type them out. So it's a discipline that I have.

45:37 Scott Ingram: I think the discipline is pretty interesting, right? And maybe that's the best of both worlds because I noticed a trend a while back and this just reemerged here recently, mostly around journaling. This actually wasn't around, you know, like client call note-taking, but it was more around journaling. But I actually noticed a lot of people that I interview who are top performers actually are more inclined to take notes by hand than they are by computer. And I did some research on it and the retention rates are astronomically better. And I'd imagine yours are even better than that because you're then translating it again and taking some time to kind of process the notes after you've, after you've written them down.

46:14 Michael Harris: Because I am a huge note-taker and I do have huge files on my customers. And that's a real discipline that I have, probably because my memory is not so great. But I think it also helps gel the story in your mind in terms of what you're looking to do for the customer. And, you know, at first there's like a slew of information and then themes start to emerge, but you're not going to get those themes unless you, you know, you took all the notes and you really understand things completely. And I don't think you're going to get the confidence from the customer as well, because it's almost like you're their therapist and their management consultant to help them get where they need to get.

46:55 Scott Ingram: I like that idea of sales therapy.

46:58 Michael Harris: Well, you are in a way, aren't you? I mean, you know, you're going to win a deal once you start getting into the customer's head. And then once you're in their head, you know, they can keep recalibrating your approach until it's kind of perfect for them, you know?

47:12 Scott Ingram: Well, and I think the other place the analogy is really interesting is if you can create that environment where they're willing to open up to that degree.

47:20 Michael Harris: Yeah.

47:21 Scott Ingram: And just like, okay, let me, let me talk this through. Let me tell you what I'm thinking, because a lot of times we don't get to understand what they're thinking.

47:28 Michael Harris: Well, that would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it? I think in all my deals, the customers opened up to me and one of the sales engineers said to me, you know, the thing I learned from you is you can be in constant contact with your customers and still add value because some of these customers for like 3 months, I was speaking to them almost every day. That's a lot. It's almost like it's a love affair, you know? And when the deal's done, it almost feels like you have separation anxiety because you miss them because you become quite close, you know?

47:59 Scott Ingram: Right, right, right. So why do you think he said that? What's happening in those conversations that maybe others aren't able to do?

48:06 Michael Harris: I don't know. He's really good. He left us, but he was, he was one of our best, a really good sales engineer, an amazing human being. And very particular. And I think he thought, well, I'll get in touch with them as little as possible, just enough. And my approach was, I want to be in touch with them every single day so that I can feel any anxiety that they feel. I can pick up on anything happening within that company that could be, you know, not threatening the deal, but impacting our ability to provide maximum value. And I want to keep recalibrating our approach so that we're always in alignment because these deals are so big and so frightening, you know, you do the wrong deal and it can shut down your company, that the trust has to stay high. And the best way to keep the trust high is to stay in, you know, complete alignment with the customer and to be trustworthy.

48:59 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's excellent. Another way that you can deepen your relationships inside a longer deal cycle is with a personalized gift from Alyce. Alyce's platform will help recommend gifts based on what it can learn about each individual from their online footprint. It then gives the recipient a choice in the matter. So if they'd rather choose something else or even donate the value of the gift to charity, they can do it. It is a super powerful tool and you've got to check it out at top1.fm/Alyce. That's A-L-Y-C-E, but I've got it set up so even if you spell it wrong, you'll still get there. top1.fm/Alyce. Now, back to Michael. Are there other habits and routines that are kind of core to the way that you operate?

49:48 Michael Harris: No, I think, you know, stay fit, eat healthy, stay calm and care and kind of sit with the pain of things so that the answers arise because it's so easy to feel that pain or that anxiety and then just get busy. Like, for instance, I'm working on this campaign and I wasn't quite getting the results that I wanted. And you start feeling the anxiety, but you haven't quite pinpointed what the problem's like. So one of the things a salesperson could do is think, oh shoot, there's that anxiety again. I don't want to feel that. Oh, I'm going to get more busy. I'm going to, I'm going to get a really good process. Oh, I'm going to do more. I'm not going to make 10 calls a day. I'm going to make 20 or 50 or 100 or 200. But you're just doing the same thing instead of just sitting with that discomfort and letting it eat away at you. And then it's like, okay, so what is the issue? And you sit with it and then you find out, my message isn't quite right. And then you recalibrate and then, you know, you move on.

50:55 Scott Ingram: Have you read the book Deep Work?

50:57 Michael Harris: I think I have. Is it by Cal Newport? Yes.

51:00 Scott Ingram: Yep.

51:00 Michael Harris: Yeah.

51:01 Scott Ingram: Because a lot of what you're describing, I mean, you might use different words than I might use, but it sounds like you're spending a lot time just thinking and being thoughtful and feeling the customer, you know? Yeah.

51:14 Michael Harris: And doing your day-to-day stuff too, because you got to do that. But what I don't want to be is just that frightened ottoman that, you know, like the chicken that has its head cut off and is ticking all the right boxes on their to-dos for that day, but getting nothing done. I mean, you want traction, you know?

51:33 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Yeah. So obviously you're a reader. What is your information diet? What are you listening to, reading, watching? When does that stuff happen? And what are some of those impactful things you've consumed lately?

51:46 Michael Harris: So I've read a lot of sales books and there's really only a few that I've liked. Let's Get Real or Let's Not Play. Do you remember that one?

51:56 Scott Ingram: I have not read that one.

51:57 Michael Harris: That's an oldie from like 20 years ago, but I thought that was a fantastic book. Then I've read a lot of books based on how people make decisions, like how we decide. And then, you know, I've read a lot of books on the kind of psychology. So, you know, all of these different types of books. I mean, I'm a big believer that a lot of our decisions are made intuitively. You know, we think we always sell to someone's rational mind, but, you know, the problem with that is our working memory, and people can only remember about 3 things at a time. I think a lot of decision-making goes on subconsciously, and there's huge amounts of processing power that goes on there. And then those those decisions are communicated to the brain via feeling, but it doesn't mean that there wasn't a huge process that goes on there. And so a lot of that revolves around, you know, selling with some of these customer stories that I share, because I think they speak not just to the customer's rational brain, but they also get a feeling from it and a credibility from it coming from another customer. And then, you know, staying in alignment with the customer, being trustworthy, being honorable. You know, I think your character is so important because they smell that.

53:09 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So kind of a standard question for me, and again, my curiosity is running high just given your background. I wonder if you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy.

53:22 Michael Harris: There's so many that I've seen that I liked. You know, I liked kind of the solution selling. I liked the customer-centric selling because there was this view that you could just do certain things and you could win and you could achieve, but it never really works out that way, does it? Then I like the idea of The Challenger Sale. If I could challenge the customer and give them these insights, then oh my gosh, you know, I would, I would help them see the light and they would buy my product. But how you do that is so important that it's in the best interests of the customer and you're not just trying to, you know, bend and shape them to your way. I guess it's helping the customer succeed.

54:04 Scott Ingram: You just answered the question I was going to ask you. I was going to ask if you were to name your own philosophy, what that would be. Is it that? Is it helping the customer succeed?

54:14 Michael Harris: Yeah, I mean, of course you always want things, and it's almost like you have to fight your lizard brain and your lizard personality and, you know, try and have enlightened self-interest and to turn down your ego as much as you can so that you can really help the customer. And it's something I don't always find that easy to do, but it's something I'd like to get much better at.

54:37 Scott Ingram: I also think we're probably getting a sense of it, but if you were to name it or describe it, how would you describe your style?

54:44 Michael Harris: I can be quite aggressive sometimes, so I need to tone that down. I mean, I'm not always perfect. I make mistakes, and sometimes I do do some of these things that I don't like to do, but I think I'm thoughtful. I think I'm creative. I think I'm fairly knowledgeable. Knowledgeable about the business side of what we're selling. I think I do follow a process, although it doesn't sound like it, but I think I intuitively follow a process. So there's some of the things.

55:13 Scott Ingram: And what does… you're certainly not coming across as very aggressive right now. So how does that show up? What does that look like when you say you can be too aggressive?

55:21 Michael Harris: I can get fear-based. I can start lobbing calls through when the customer gets quiet. I can go over someone's head too quickly because it hits my fear and then I'm operating out of fear instead of concern or love or call it what you will. And you do bad things and you do stupid things. I mean, for the big deal that I was working on, they had an ERP committee and there was a guy who was head of engineering and IT. And he said, we're the committee, don't go beyond us. And what was the first thing I did? I went beyond them and I went to the CEO and the VP of operations. And he said, the guy who was running the ERP said, hey, we like your software. Don't do that again or you're And I kind of learned my lesson, then licked my wounds and tried to quiet that side of myself down, you know? So I'm susceptible to doing it.

56:12 Scott Ingram: That's a tough call though, right? I mean, we've all been told that, right? Like, there's this committee, they've got their process and you're not, you know, and this often comes from procurement, right? Don't, you're not, don't talk to anybody else. You have to talk to me. When is and isn't that the right thing? I mean, is that another just, you've got to get a feel for that particular situation or? How are you deciding what's right there?

56:35 Michael Harris: I guess it's a judgment call and no one has a crystal ball on when to do it, but I did it a few times later in the sales cycle, but I built up enough trust that I was able to get away with it. So I'm always keen to do that because I'm selling to the whole company. I'm not selling to that one person. The whole company is the patient on my operating table. And if the elbow is telling me not to do something, it's It's like, well, you know, I'm treating the whole patient, not just the elbow. So, you know, you'll listen to the elbow, but you won't listen exclusively to the elbow. You do what's best for the whole patient on the table.

57:13 Scott Ingram: I like it. I like it. Maybe it's just because I'm a giant analogy guy myself, but I'm loving your analogy.

57:17 Michael Harris: I always think in metaphors too.

57:19 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

57:20 Michael Harris: Yeah.

57:20 Scott Ingram: That's fantastic. Is there something you believe that the average sales professional would think is crazy?

57:27 Michael Harris: I think, you know, so often in sales you think your job is to hit a certain number, but I think it's also to have fun and do things that you enjoy. And originally when I started doing these stories, you know, they take a lot of time. You don't necessarily get an immediate return. You often end up working on them in the evening, but I really enjoy doing it. And if I really enjoy doing it, it'll make my job more interesting and it might not work for the immediate bottom line, but you kind of have fun doing it. I think it's important to do that. And so it has helped me succeed, but it wasn't the only reason I was doing it. It was because it's fun.

58:06 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I like that. I like that. What about the flip side? Is there something the average sales professional believes that you think is crazy?

58:13 Michael Harris: That if I just follow a process and I just do these things, I'll be successful.

58:18 Scott Ingram: Say more about that. Why don't you see that working?

58:20 Michael Harris: Because you're not thinking, you're not getting traction. You're all motivated. And if you're an idiot, then you get motivated, you're a motivated idiot. And I think you want to make sure you have traction and you want to listen and you want to hear the customer and you want to really know what the deep issues are so that you can come back and present 3 things and do it really well. But if all you're doing is working your way in a hurried way through a process, you're not going to pick up on all of those things that are just just so vital. It's almost like, you know, a therapist going through a checklist and not really getting to know you very well. Yeah. How helpful are they going to be?

59:00 Scott Ingram: It's almost, you know, sure, you could do a lot of things, but maybe you should ask yourself, is that the right thing?

59:05 Michael Harris: And is it the honorable thing?

59:07 Scott Ingram: Oh, there's a good question.

59:09 Michael Harris: Yeah. I mean, you're there to help the customer, aren't you? And the other stuff is just going through the steps to help yourself.

59:15 Scott Ingram: This is fun, man.

59:20 Michael Harris: It's different, eh?

59:21 Scott Ingram: Oh, I love it. I love it. This is perfect. This is exactly what I needed on a Friday night the 13th. So good.

59:29 Michael Harris: We should be drinking wine.

59:30 Scott Ingram: We should be drinking wine, but we're being honest, aren't we? So good. There might be still some wine drinking time. Maybe we will wrap up the official thing and we'll pour a glass and go.

59:41 Michael Harris: I would like that.

59:42 Scott Ingram: Let's do it.

59:43 Michael Harris: You know, talking to you, I like it. You know, it's important to like who you work with, isn't it?

59:47 Scott Ingram: You know, it is. It's a hugely important thing.

59:50 Michael Harris: Oh, and the other thing that I think is really important when you join a company, and I didn't realize that at first, and when I first came in, it was like, I want to do it this way. And, you know, I want this done. And, you know, you don't, you don't sell these deals on your own at big companies like Epicor. You do it with the team and the team didn't like that very well. And, you know, my ego got knocked and, you know, I broke down into a thousand pieces and built myself back up again. And I think social capital and you want to listen and be honorable with your customers and you have to do that with your colleagues as well and treat them like people so that they'll want to work with you and do things for you. And I think building that social capital is so important, but not just from a manipulative standpoint that you want to do deals, but just honoring people I think is so important. Yeah.

1:00:40 Scott Ingram: And well, we have talked a lot on this podcast and in Sales Success Summits just about this idea because especially when you're doing big deals like this, it is a team sport, right? And yeah, totally got to figure out how to work with that team because your, your job is to lead the team.

1:00:59 Michael Harris: Yeah. And they have to want to work with you, you know. And the funny thing is, when you first come in, you know, most people are saying, oh, this guy's not going to last 6 months. And so probably the best thing about, you know, achieving a certain notoriety is that people are more willing to work with you now.

1:01:19 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Oh, that's… yeah, for sure. Especially if they see that a lot, if that's a track record where, you know, yeah, people come in, they're, they're totally head full of steam and there's, there's not going to be a result. There's, there's almost a period of time where it's just hard to get that trust because they're like, yeah, yeah, I've seen this before. Yeah. Wait, let me wait till I know you're serious.

1:01:40 Michael Harris: Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:41 Scott Ingram: That's interesting. Well, I think that's a pretty good transition because whether it's, it's moving into a new role or, I mean, the way I often ask the question is just, you know, advice that you would give to somebody that is either, either just starting out in their sales career or maybe just starting out in a new role. What advice do you give them?

1:01:59 Michael Harris: You got to learn the product. That's important. But equally, you have to learn the customer in terms of how the customer uses the product and the problems that it solves. And so I think you really have to know what are the problems the customer is experiencing, and then how can they solve those with your offering? And you need these use case scenarios that roll off your tongue, and you need to know what the pain looks like for the customer so that when you're speaking with a customer, you can refer to, well, you remind me of another customer, and here was the situation they were going through. And by telling that story, then the person that you're speaking to almost feels the battery acid in their stomach start to eat away, and they think, wow, we're just like that, but we're slightly different. Here's our story. And then by telling them that story, now suddenly they're no longer ankle-deep in water. They're suddenly out middle in the lake, you know, 3 miles offshore, and they couldn't possibly swim to shore. And then they're ready to get into your rescue boat so that you can paddle them to shore instead of trying to rescue people that are only knee or ankle-deep in water. They're going to pick all these objections in terms of either we're not ready or we're busy or, you know, your boat looks terrible. It's not going to do its job, you know. So I think getting out and speaking to customers and really finding out what those issues are is critically important.

1:03:27 Scott Ingram: When you did that coming into Epicor, were these clients that were in your own territory? Did you go beyond? How did you start that process?

1:03:37 Michael Harris: I have a really nice guy that I work with, my manager, and we're friends. And so he kind of had my back, which I think is so important in a big company that someone has your back and they protect you from all the stuff that goes on in companies so that you can do your job. And so he's been great at doing that and great in supporting me in this. So it was in my territory, outside of my territory, it was anywhere.

1:04:00 Scott Ingram: Now, did you know, did you know your boss before you came in?

1:04:04 Michael Harris: Yeah, he was a customer of mine.

1:04:06 Scott Ingram: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I wasn't sure if it was the same, if it was the same person. So I guess I'll have to ask the question a different way because that's, that's totally different when you already know who they are. And I similarly…

1:04:17 Michael Harris: that was, that was a key point in me joining the company because I think people don't leave companies, they leave managers. And so whether it was Epicor or SAP or Microsoft or Infor, they're all good, but they're all kind of the same. You know, they're all good in their own way. But having someone that you can trust and that has your back and that you can work with is just gold.

1:04:41 Scott Ingram: Well, and given how important that is, so again, you had a leg up because you, you had a previous relationship. You knew.

1:04:47 Michael Harris: Yeah, I wouldn't have done it otherwise.

1:04:49 Scott Ingram: Right. But for the rest of us, when I cheated too, I recruited my own boss.

1:04:54 Michael Harris: It is kind of cheating, isn't it?

1:04:56 Scott Ingram: But how would you suggest… again, it's something I don't think people think enough about, right, of how important, how impactful that person is going to be on their success and on their career. How do you vet that? How do you figure out, is this somebody that is actually going to care for me and have my back? Be there when you're just interviewing?

1:05:18 Michael Harris: I don't know, but I can tell you it's critically important because I've had bosses before that I wasn't keen on and it's hard. It eats away at your psyche and you can't go off into sales with a damaged psyche. You've got to be whole. And I'm not great at filling out my sales forecast. I'm not great at doing a lot of certain details, my manager is pretty forgiving, you know?

1:05:44 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah.

1:05:45 Michael Harris: And if he wasn't, I think it'd drive me nuts.

1:05:47 Scott Ingram: Well, and here I think it is so important, and again, I, I haven't found a great answer. I'm happy to share a couple of, of my own thoughts real quickly.

1:05:56 Michael Harris: Oh, please do. And you speak to so many different people, you'd probably have a great answer.

1:06:00 Scott Ingram: Well, having spoken to so many people, I don't know for sure, but I feel like I have not interviewed anybody on this podcast who's in that number one spot who is there and successful despite their boss.

1:06:19 Michael Harris: Oh, interesting. That should go in your book.

1:06:22 Scott Ingram: Yeah. Sales is too hard of a thing.

1:06:25 Michael Harris: It is hard, isn't it? If you're fighting internally and then going out into battle, how can you do that?

1:06:32 Scott Ingram: Well, it becomes a 2-front war, which is unwinnable, right? So you, you can't overcome a bad boss, bad bad leadership and overcome everything else that we all have to overcome in just sales in, in general, right? So that piece is so critical. Here's my thought. What I have tried to do, because I've been on both sides of this, I have had great leaders and I have had horrible bosses, and, and I've left them, you know. I mean, you're absolutely right, that was the reason why I've left previous roles. What I try and do now is I try and find people who are disinterested parties. I try and find… and LinkedIn is an amazing tool… I will try and find people who have worked for that person before who don't work for them now.

1:07:16 Michael Harris: Aspires, right?

1:07:17 Scott Ingram: Because if they work for them now, like, there's… it's just political, right? They're, they're trying to cover themselves. They're not going to tell the truth, right? But, but somebody who just isn't an interested party often will, will tell the truth, and you can very quickly kind of figure out what type of leader they are. And I think the question can as simple as, would you work for this person again, given the choice?

1:07:39 Michael Harris: Yeah, that makes total sense. You know, sometimes in the beginning, the first 6 months or year, you know, there'd be times where you're, you're kind of beaten up and it's almost like you're a jet fighter and you're going out and you're doing what you need to do. Although I've never liked war analogies much for customers because then it sounds like you're doing something not nice to the customer. I always liked the doctor-patient role more. But anyway, let's roll with this one for a second. And it's almost like my manager was like that, that big gas tanker that's flying in the air and the jet would go out into the battle and then come back and get refueled up. And it's, it's, you know, he, he would often work with my psyche and get me whole again so I could go back out there, you know, which is, which is a nice thing.

1:08:24 Scott Ingram: Yeah, I like it. That's really good. While we're on the advice train, the other question I like to ask is for folks who who are, you know, kind of mid-career, mid-year, mid-whatever, right? And they're just, they're struggling for one reason or another. What advice do you have for them?

1:08:41 Michael Harris: Well, that's hard, isn't it? I guess advice would be, why are they struggling and why are they not connecting? And often I think that's because you're not 100% engaged anymore. You know, you don't want to feel the pain, so you numb yourself, and you numb yourself, and then you're not really engaged with what you need to be doing on a day-to-day basis and what you need to be doing with the customer. And it's almost like you've built up a scenario in your mind that it's just too painful to sink deep into the role to do what you really need to do, that you're just going to pull back. And that's death. And so it's almost like you have to allow yourself to feel the pain and move forward and come out the other end.

1:09:27 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's really interesting.

1:09:29 Michael Harris: Because don't you think that's what happens? People, the pain just got too great and they started retreating and they're not willing to get into it as deep as they need to. And you need to feel when you're in sales, to feel the customer, to feel the pulse of your pipeline, whether or not it's dry and it needs to be. I mean, you know these things, you just have to feel them.

1:09:49 Scott Ingram: I mean, yeah, it goes back to what you've been talking about a lot sort of thematically is just, you know, kind of sitting with yourself. It's kind of a self-awareness kind of thing.

1:09:58 Michael Harris: Like, you probably know what's wrong, but you're not willing to feel it, not acknowledging it.

1:10:02 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, fascinating. So earlier we were talking about, you know, when you were training, how, you know, it was, it was really… and this is how I think about this show a lot too, right? I think it's, it's really only good people who are attracted to this, and they have a desire and they to be great, right? So it's easy that whatever that group is, the top 10, 20, 25%, right, that is good, that has a desire to be great, that's easy to reach. What about the rest? I wanted to come back to that and again, sort of that training experience. How many of those that are left are reachable? Can sort of bridge the gap? How many are lost causes and how do we do that? I mean, you talked a little bit about some of the coaching and, and some of the other things, but I'm just thinking, how do we reach more people and bring them, you know, over to the side of good?

1:10:57 Michael Harris: Yeah, it's a funny role, sales, isn't it? It's almost like you need to control yourself before you can go out and try and influence others. You know, you need to be able to sell yourself and you need to be able to help yourself change before you can help others. And so I think having a really good manager on a day-to-day or week-to-week basis helps quite a bit. And then, you know, some of the stuff that I was doing in training I thought was quite good because it was kind of based around, you know, customer stories of why they bought and what hell looked like so they could take the customer to hell before they rescued them and took them to heaven. And it gave people that situational awareness. That they could be in a call with the customer and they could kind of feel their way through and take, you know, XYZ story and mix it with another and think, wow, this customer is just like that. And then they could relate to the customer. And, and so having that type of information, I think, is critically important. And then the other stuff, the kind of mindset and awareness Well, not many training programs do that because that's kind of weird to bring someone in to do it in a corporate setting. But I think a manager can do that. A good manager can do that.

1:12:19 Scott Ingram: That's really interesting too, because I mean, a lot of what we've been thinking about and talking about, again, just as part of the Sales Success Community and how do we want to serve those that are in our audience, I feel like it's less about the sales strategies and the sales tactics and all this stuff, and there's so much information about that. But to your point, there are such fundamental things about how you are managing yourself, how you're managing your mindset, how you're… yeah, and nobody's talking about that. Nobody's talking about what is that process, whether it's a process. I mean, you know, I certainly am a little bit more process-driven, but, you know, how do you get there to make sure that you've got that grounding before we worry about exactly the right thing to say, which isn't even really a thing?

1:13:12 Michael Harris: It's kind of like putting mayonnaise on a shit sandwich. You know, it's still a shit sandwich. You know, you, you just don't eat shit sandwiches, you know, and get your mind under control and your psyche under control, and then you can do all that other stuff. You know, it's, it's kind of like just putting lipstick on a pig. Pig, you know. I think you need the product knowledge. I think you need the customer knowledge. And then the processy stuff, I think as long as you're focusing on helping the customer, you know, you learn that stuff. I guess that comes to me naturally, so I don't focus on that as much. Also, I've seen people follow it in too regimented a fashion that it's like, what are you doing? You know, you, you need to be able to… I think it's so important to be able to pivot. I think one of my big skills this year was pivoting. I think pivoting is so important.

1:14:03 Scott Ingram: Well, and that brings us back also to, again, just the pressure of the numbers.

1:14:10 Michael Harris: Yeah, that's not easy.

1:14:12 Scott Ingram: Fight against kind of doing what's right. And I really… I think this is, for me, the way I'm starting to think about this, because I actually work for a company that thinks this way. And it really has to be a cultural thing. Because if you use the numbers to drive everything, and that's all the metrics and all the accountability, there's not the space to like, look, we just need to do what's right for the customer. And this shows up in so many different ways. I think the biggest one is just when we think about timelines. Is it our timeline or their timeline? And some of this I think is pipeline, right? If you have a strong enough pipeline and you're not wholly dependent on a single deal, then you can be a little bit more patient, right? And allow the deal to evolve. And oftentimes I find that when you're able to do that, often the deals get bigger because what do we do when we're driving the numbers and we're driving our timeline, like the primary tool that everybody seems to use is I'll just give you a big discount. Well, what if we just didn't do that? What if we let them just buy when they're ready and we'd see 25% more revenue? Like, isn't that better for everybody?

1:15:33 Michael Harris: No, it's true. But, you know, in spite of everything I've said, I do try and keep timelines moving quickly because I think time can kill deals. And I think, you know, customers can lose their mettle or things can happen. So it's a delicate balancing act, isn't it? I guess you try and do it in the interests of your customer, but ultimately your self-interests sneak through a little bit.

1:15:58 Scott Ingram: Well, and you said it well, right? Because I'm not suggesting that you just sit back and relax and wait for it all to come in, right? But when I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about…

1:16:08 Michael Harris: I guess you encourage instead of push.

1:16:10 Scott Ingram: Well, and I'm trying to really… I'm trying to hold them accountable to their own timeline. So it really…

1:16:17 Michael Harris: and wherever that is, that's fine. That's why I often like these sequences. Of events. You know, you've, you've kind of done your demo and then you say, well, here, all, you know, when, when do you want this to go live? Okay, great. Well, implementation takes this long. So, you know, we have to do all these things before, you know, we're ready to sign. So, you know, let's put some timelines in there. And I mean, those types of tools I do think are really useful and I use them in every deal. So in spite of me kind of sounding flippant about process, I am very process orientated, but I still want to be, you know, in touch with the intuitive stuff because I think I just do the process stuff naturally. Mm-hmm.

1:16:59 Scott Ingram: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean, a lot of this stuff does come back to balance, right? Because I don't want to give the sense that, again, that I'm like, oh, we shouldn't do these things. I mean, I'm in the middle of a deal right now. I'm actually much closer to the end of a deal right now where it's their timeline. Okay, well, you have this vendor delivering this solution and that contract expires on this date, which means if we back this up and we look at how long it's going to take to implement and all these other things. You have to sign this contract before the end of the month or we can't get this done in time. And then your risk is you have to sign another year with that other vendor who you hate.

1:17:36 Michael Harris: One of the things I heard Justin say on your show and I used was he was selling kind of an unusual thing. I don't know what it's called, customer advocacy or whatever. So he'd be speaking to these marketing people and they'd be telling them what they want to do. And he'd say, well, let me ask you a question. How many times have you bought customer advocacy? See before? And they'd say, well, none. And then he'd say, well, would you be interested in how the steps our other customers who have bought have been through? And they'd say, well, yeah, we would. And then he kind of walked them through a sequence of events. I thought that was really clever. I mean, he said it much better than I did, but that was one of the things I picked up from your show and I use in every sales cycle. So that's awesome. Thank you.

1:18:17 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that's… there's a lot of good themes coming from this conversation, and I feel like another one is just, it's developing that level of trust. And, you know, I think it's one of the things, you know, challengers was such a big thing, you know, over the course of the last… gosh, that thing's getting a little bit long in the, in the tooth. But I think there's so much nuance in that that just got missed, right? You can't really challenge somebody and push them if you don't have some relationship and some trust, because otherwise you just sound like a jerk. But if you can develop that trust…

1:18:55 Michael Harris: yeah, how do I challenge the customer's thinking if I challenge the customer, right? It's kind of hard.

1:19:01 Scott Ingram: Yeah, exactly. I can't just like come out and say your baby's ugly. Yeah, it's not gonna work.

1:19:07 Michael Harris: Yeah, yeah. It kind of felt like it didn't have a soul, you know?

1:19:11 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah. Well, for sure. I mean, well, and I, I think it's if you look at the challenger persona that they sort of defined, that person does not not value relationships. I'm speaking in double negatives, but, you know, they so maligned the relationship-oriented salesperson. And my guess is, and I think the reason that that got kind of pulled off sideways is I think they're thinking of the relationship salesperson as like, I'm just like the wine and dine. I take you out and we play golf and, you know, and business is supposed to happen because of that. Yeah, sure. That sounds totally ineffective to me too.

1:19:48 Michael Harris: Well, right, but I think you're selling something, you need a straw man to sell against, don't you? And so they were creating their straw man with the relationship.

1:19:58 Scott Ingram: And that's, that's right. That's right. But so again, I think you get to this point of extremes.

1:20:03 Michael Harris: Also think that the best sales training doesn't necessarily get sold or bought because the people that are buying it are often VPs of sales who are under enormous pressure quarter by quarter. So they're not always gonna pick the best program for people because they might not be around to see it through, you know. So I mean, there's someone that's under enormous pressure.

1:20:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah, no doubt. And I think that falls into the same trap that we have with the numbers and the deals, right? They have their own pressures and they're trying to fix something that's gonna have an impact in 2 months, whereas if you're doing training right and we're really developing people, that's a long-term Right.

1:20:41 Michael Harris: Yeah.

1:20:42 Scott Ingram: Yeah. I believe there's just not near enough long-term thinking in sales. We're thinking month to month or quarter to quarter.

1:20:50 Michael Harris: Remember when we were around, when we started? Because you're, you're over 20, aren't you?

1:20:55 Scott Ingram: A few days. Yes.

1:20:57 Michael Harris: Yeah. So way, way back in the day before internet, there was companies like Merrill Lynch who I worked for, or IBM. IBM or, you know, companies like that who had sales training programs, which were almost like a mini university. And on your resume, it had so much street cred because, man, if you went through IBM or you went through Merrill Lynch, you must have been really well trained. And you kind of were. And, you know, they wouldn't expect any numbers from you for quite some time, and they'd really take the time to train you, wouldn't they?

1:21:29 Scott Ingram: Right, right.

1:21:30 Michael Harris: Yeah, I think that happens anymore.

1:21:31 Scott Ingram: Really hard to find that in anymore. Yeah, yeah. So here's what I want to hear. So if you're listening to this and your company still does that type of like very deep training, I actually benefited from that. It wasn't too long ago, although maybe it was, I don't know, a dozen years ago that I joined ADP.

1:21:48 Michael Harris: And oh, that's a pretty good sales-oriented company, I think.

1:21:52 Scott Ingram: I mean, it was… I walked in like, okay, here's your 16-week program. And it was a really strong, you know, online thing. We kind of went through it as a class together and then ultimately We all got together for a, for 2 weeks in Peachtree, Georgia, a little, I think, south of Atlanta.

1:22:10 Michael Harris: Sounds nice.

1:22:10 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it was fantastic. They did a great job. But to your point, I just don't see very much of that at all. But if you work for one of those organizations, send me a note. I want to, I want to hear who is still kind of offering that. Because again, it goes back to what I was talking about earlier and kind of this ecosystem idea is especially for folks that are just getting their start in sales. If you can work for that type of an organization that's going to give you that sort of foundation work for the type of sales manager that we were talking about, I think that could really set you up for success. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Well, Michael, I think we're probably gonna keep going with a glass of wine after this, so why don't we wrap up the official thing? Because I get… I think we're allowed to do that. It's late Friday afternoon.

1:22:52 Michael Harris: Oh, by all means.

1:22:53 Scott Ingram: Yeah, so, but here's the way I like to kind of tie a bow on, on things. We've covered a ton of ground, talked about a lot of different things. What would you challenge the person listening to this right now to do over the course of the next, say, 1 to 2 weeks to improve themselves and improve their results?

1:23:12 Michael Harris: Go out and speak to 10 customers and find out why they bought your product. And then ask them, before you bought our product, what were the big challenges that you were experiencing? And not just say, oh yeah, so that when you go and speak to someone else, though they're experiencing these 3 challenges, that doesn't mean anything. Then it's like, well, give me a use case scenario of why it was difficult before you bought our product. Walk me through something that you were doing on a day-to-day basis and how it was difficult with your previous way of doing it. And walk me through a real example so that then you can share those examples. I think that's so powerful in sales. And I think that's how you throw coals on the fire of the sale to get the customer motivated. Motivated to get up out of the status quo and start looking for a different place to sit.

1:24:01 Scott Ingram: Love it. And then if you're an absolute want to take that to the next level, you record those conversations and cut them up and reuse them in future sales cycles.

1:24:09 Michael Harris: Totally. Yeah. So I think just having that knowledge means you can really help the customer because you've got that, that customer knowledge that is so important because you need to do customer knowledge to then draw them to your corporate knowledge. It's not like you can take your product knowledge and pull the customer in with that.

1:24:29 Scott Ingram: So good. So good. Michael, this has been fantastic. Thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.

1:24:34 Michael Harris: I was looking forward to it. I've always liked hearing you on these podcasts and I've taken stuff from people before. So hopefully someone will get something from me as a way to give back.

1:24:43 Scott Ingram: I'm sure they will. Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community, powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.