10: Claire Philliskirk - O2 Telefonica - Empathy is the Key to Sales Success

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram. Today on the Sales Success Stories podcast, my guest is Claire Philliskirk. Claire is a digital consultant at O2 Telefonica, where she's never missed a target and was recently named the 2016 Best Woman in Technology Sales Europe at the Women in Sales Awards. Welcome to the show, Claire.

0:42 Claire Philliskirk: Hi, Scott. Thank you very much. I'm so grateful to be here.

0:46 Scott Ingram: I'm glad you're here too. So if this is the first time you're listening to this show, and then you should know that these conversations, they can be quite lengthy. But rather than starting with a lot of background, instead we try to get right into the good stuff so you can take something tangible away from just the first 10 minutes of conversation, and we do that consistently with all of our episodes. So if you want to check out some previous shows and just listen to the first few minutes, you can use that to help you decide which of these conversations you really want to dig deeply into. So Claire, with that, what are the top 3 things that you believe have made you such an amazing seller?

1:23 Claire Philliskirk: So I mean, there's so many different attributes of a great salesperson, but You know, if I had to boil it down to 3 specific things, first of all, I would have to say dedication to learning. So, we're really, I think we're really lucky as salespeople that we work in a really fast-paced environment, but also we need to constantly educate ourselves, whether that's learning about new products, whether it's learning about new processes. Even learning about a customer, you know, what their plans are or what their strategy are. So I think dedication to learning is, you know, is definitely up there.

2:05 Scott Ingram: And what is that for you? Like, do you carve out time to dig into the learning? What are the sources that you use? How do you apply that?

2:14 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'm really lucky where I work as well. And, you know, my my boss says to us on a Friday, this is your day to learn, really. But also, I make a point of, you know, of an evening to spend an hour where either I'm researching new products or I'm reading articles. And, you know, I'm a real avid fan of social selling as well. So if I see an article on LinkedIn that looks interesting, I'll, you know, just save it for later. Or if I've spoken to a customer and they've told me about a product maybe I don't know about because, you know, technology is, you know, it's moving so fast as an industry. Every day something else new is coming along. So I kind of make a, you know, just make a note of things I want to educate myself on. But I always make a point, you know, even of an evening for an hour to just read through some articles or, you know, watch some videos, you know, online.

3:16 Scott Ingram: That's fantastic. So dedication to learning is the first thing. What's number 2 for you?

3:23 Claire Philliskirk: The second one for me has got to be empathy. So to be a really good salesperson, you've got to have that, you know, you've got to be in touch with the emotional side of selling. You've got to have some empathy, and I think that, you know, I actually listened to a TED Talk recently, and the guy was talking about the givers and the takers, and, you know, how about where the givers are, you know, real empathetic people and they understand. So I think empathy is a really big one as well.

4:02 Scott Ingram: Was… I wonder if that TED Talk was that Adam Grant.

4:05 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, it was. It was fantastic.

4:08 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's, that's well worth checking out. He's done a lot of research around this idea of giving, and there's some really interesting insights going on there. And then what's the third thing after learning and being empathetic?

4:24 Claire Philliskirk: So the third thing for me, and you know what, it took me quite a few years to kind of realize I had this, but I've got a real passion for sales, you know, a real passion for the profession, and I mean, I kind of fell into sales. It wasn't my desire, you know, it wasn't what I set out to do, you know, and I've, you know, I've recently written an article which is entitled, When I Grow Up I Want to Be in Sales, Said No One Ever, because no one grows up and says, do you know what, I want to be a salesperson, but when you really look at the, you know, the profession itself, and it's such a diverse profession, you've got to really, you know, care about what you do and have real passion for what you do. You know, I would… anyone starting out a career today, you know, looking for any advice on what to do, I would absolutely advise a profession in sales. It's, you know, I am super passionate about it.

5:21 Scott Ingram: And is it just the field and the role, or is it your product, or all of the above? How do you think about that passion and how it contributes to your success?

5:33 Claire Philliskirk: So it's, it's got to be a mixture of things. So I have a keen interest in technology, and I'm lucky that, you know, I sell technology into businesses as part of my role. So the products definitely, um, you know, that definitely makes a difference. But I think also it depends on how you look at the role. So, you know, I don't go out to work and in front of my customers and think, right, I'm going to sell the customer this product today. I guess I look, kind of take a step back and think, right, what am I going to achieve by selling this? How am I going to help the customer, whether it's making them work more effectively, whether it's helping them hit their targets? Then I think another level for me as well, so I work in a team of 8 people, and I kind of take it upon myself to you know, employ that leadership or mentor role. And I love to share with my colleagues what it is I do. You can get so much from sales. So, you know, whether you're learning about new products, whether you're mentoring and coaching people, and, you know, helping them, giving them the tips of the trade that have worked well for you, but essentially helping the customer as well and, you know, building that relationship.

6:50 Scott Ingram: And I wonder if you think that that process actually is a contributor to your success, if you're taking the time out to teach the rest of your team what's working in your environment? Does that help kind of reinforce those things that you're doing well? Do you use that as a tool to kind of improve yourself?

7:09 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, absolutely. And I also use it as a tool to prove that it works. You know, you might deploy a certain methodology or, you know, a certain process and it works for a customer or a couple of customers. And, you know, I think to kind of get that real reinforcement that it is working, what better to do than, you know, tell somebody else about it and see it in action with them and, you know, see the results there. Yeah.

7:42 Scott Ingram: So in other words, it's really helping to expand kind of your sample size, right? Maybe you've run 3 experiments, you've tried this a couple of times with a couple of different clients, and it seems to be working. But then by sharing it with the rest of the team, maybe you get 10 or 20 more data points and can know, yeah, this, this is the thing that's working, or maybe it's something else.

8:02 Claire Philliskirk: Well, that's it. And I think that, you know what, that's another really important thing. We, we don't take time. We never really take stock and reflect on what we've done. You know, we, we might take stock and, you know, take 5 minutes in and think, wow, I've been really successful this quarter. You know, I've, I've made a lot of sales. I've sold a lot of this product. And what we really need to make time to do is sit back and look at why, you know, what worked, what didn't work. Even look at… I mean, gosh, there's so much data out there, you know, at our fingertips. We should… we need to be looking at the data as well, you know, trying to analyze those trends and, you know, taking forward the ones that work and, you know, showing other people as well. Yeah.

8:47 Scott Ingram: Oh, exciting stuff. Well, before I start to dig deeper into my conversation with Claire, I wanted to quickly suggest that you set yourself up with a free account on Nudge is a modern sales platform that uses AI to find actionable insights on your prospects and customers without all the grunt work. Sign up for Nudge to start building real relationships with your buyers. Just type top1.fm/nudge. That's N-U-D-G-E, top1.fm/nudge, and get started today. And we would both appreciate your doing that. So, Claire, talk about your role today and how you got to number 1.

9:24 Claire Philliskirk: So, as you mentioned, Scott, I'm a digital consultant at O2. I guess it's probably good if I go back, you know, and kind of explain why I took on the role. So, as a business, we'd gone through a kind of a transformation and really wanted to change the way that we worked. So, instead of being a sole telecoms provider, we wanted to help businesses along that digital journey. And so I thought, you know, that, that's amazing, you know, that's so exciting. I want to help do that and kind of act in that consultative capacity to say, right, where are you at the moment in the journey? You know, and here's, here's where, you know, you maybe need to get to. What are you thinking of? And, and just, just helping customers. So I've got at the moment 60 business customers, and they range in size, completely different industries. Some of, you know, right from, um, you know, e-commerce through to haulage, um, and they're based, you know, up and down the UK… well, actually all over the world, really, you know, global businesses. Some of them have, you know, over 2,000 employees. Some of them, you know, have 50 employees, and what's really great about the role is that, you know, nobody's the same, you know, and you get to… I like to see myself as an extension to their business. I don't want my customers to look at me and think, oh, it's Claire from O2, just another supplier, we just want to get the cheapest deal, you know. I want them to kind of look at me as in that advisor capacity, so And to have the opportunity to do that was what really attracted me to, you know, to the business and to really dig deep and help those businesses out. So, I guess that, you know, it's an account management type role, but my job is to talk to my customers about all of the technology products we have and understand where that can fit in with their business strategy.

11:36 Scott Ingram: Excellent. And can you quantify your results for us? Exactly how well have you done?

11:43 Claire Philliskirk: So, I mean, last year was a fantastic year for me. If we… if I split it into, you know, the 2 financial halves. So in, in H1 last year, I hit 227% of target. And then in H2 last year, I hit 500% 126% of target. And as part of the, you know, the H2 last year, landed a deal which was recognized by one of the directors at O2 as the most significant deal they'd ever seen in mid-market. So, you know, to quantify it in terms of, you know, figures, it's, you know, I was obviously really pleased with the results last year.

12:36 Scott Ingram: That's fantastic. And talk about that deal, you know, walk us through that. How did that get started? What made that possible and helped you create the most significant deal that the company's seen?

12:48 Claire Philliskirk: Do you know what? I was thinking about this before because obviously knew I was coming on the show. You know, I figured that specific deal would come up in conversation and I was thinking about it and I thought, you know what, that it wasn't something that just happened overnight. You know, it took… the actual deal itself took about 10 months end to end. And I was… if I, if I was to look back and try and identify those, you know, those kind of points or those elements of it that, that, you know, that kind of helped land it and made it a successful deal, um, if The one thing I would say is it's so important when you're selling in, you know, a large solution to a company to make sure the right stakeholders are involved. So I uncovered an opportunity really early on, and, you know, and I thought, this is a great opportunity here. And then, you know, a lot of the time in sales you end up doing all this legwork at the front end, and then 1 or 2 months down the line you think, you know what, I'm not talking to the right people here. And, you know, as well as talking to the, you know, to the right people, making sure that you get buy-in from every single, you know, department in the business, because, you know, chances are… and I speak to a lot of, you know, IT departments and, you know, IT directors, CEOs… but actually this solution also ticks some boxes for HR, for finance, for operations, and, you know, really making sure that you involve everybody that this is, you know, possibly going to benefit. So, that was a big thing for me. And, you know, I learned a lesson, I think it was halfway through, you know, speaking to the customer about that deal. And I just, I kind of felt like I'd hit a brick wall. I found this great opportunity, and, you know, I had all these great stakeholders involved, and then I felt like I'd hit a brick wall. I had to kind of go away and say to myself, what's going on, Claire? And I traced my steps back, and the customer was saying something to me, and do you know what? I wasn't really listening. I think it was one of those cases where you just hear what you want to hear, and I thought I was really close to closing the deal, but actually the customer brought something up that I kind of brushed to the side, and I didn't realize at the time how important that was to them, because I thought it was just a small thing, and in the end, you know, I kind of went back to them and said, you know what, and just held my hands up and said, do you know what, I didn't listen to you. I know we've got this issue that may seem small to me, which is quite big to you, that we kind of need to, you know, get past first before we move on to the next stage. And so just being really open and honest and having that transparency with the customer, I think, was what, you know, really contributed to to clinching the deal in the end and building the relationships. Like I say, it wasn't something that just happened overnight. It's something that you've got to be persistent and persevere and just engage in the right behaviors and it'll pay off in the end, and it sure did.

16:12 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's great. So, what I heard, and correct me if I'm wrong, is kind of the first thing was you went very wide. You found a lot of stakeholders and figured out how your solution was going to impact all of these different individuals and departments. And then, just a little bit of being aware and self-diagnosing and recognizing that, hey, I actually haven't done the best job of listening and being transparent. Once you recognize that issue, to kind of circle back, address that, I'm sure what was perceived as either a very large risk or kind of roadblock. For the client, and that ultimately laid the rest of the path for you to get there.

16:53 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, exactly. And it's being aware of those risks and not ignoring them. To the person that's selling, to me, to the seller, it may not… on the face of it, may not even look like a risk, or it may be a really small one. But if the customer's got that in their head, even if however small or whatever it is, You've got to overcome that risk, otherwise it's just not going to move forward. So, I think being really honest with yourself and having that self-realization definitely helps when it comes to big deals like that.

17:28 Scott Ingram: Yeah, that's excellent. So, Claire, you wrote that post on LinkedIn about nobody thinking as a kid that they want to grow up and be into sales. So, how did you get here?

17:41 Claire Philliskirk: Growing up, I always wanted to be a lawyer, and it wasn't because I'd watched, you know, Suits or anything like that. It was because I just, I kind of perceived that to be a, you know, an exciting job, and I thought, you know, at the time, I'll get paid loads of money, and, you know, I thought, yeah, you know, let's… that's… I fancied being a lawyer, and I'd get to use my brain, and, you know, I wanted to go to university, and so I, um, So, you know, that's what I did. I did my exams. I went on to do my law degree. But I think whilst I was doing my law degree, I actually helped a friend set up a business. She saw a gap in the construction industry. Traditionally, especially in the UK, construction businesses are a little bit archaic and kind of traditional in the way they operate. I think she saw a gap in And she said, we could be doing something here. We could be helping these guys sell. Because most of the people we dealt with, it was just a handshake on the building site and that was it. But they knew they had to change something. So she set up her own business, and I was doing my law degree anyway. I said to her, I'm studying. This is my dream. This is what I want to do. I was working part-time for my friend in this construction business, and our job was to generate leads and generate sales for different companies in the construction industry. So I think that was my first real taste of sales, and you know what, I loved it. It was great. I was meeting lots of different customers, putting different strategies in place. As she brought on new starters, I was training those guys up, but I always had it in my head that I wanted to be a lawyer. So when I finished my studies and finally got a job at a law firm, a really innovative law firm actually, and I was lucky because Um, not only could I get exposure to the legal side of things, they also sold technology. So, um, I, you know, I went into the, to the law firm and with this view of becoming a lawyer, shadowed some of the lawyers and, you know, did a little bit of, dabbled in a bit of the legal work. And I thought, do you know what, I don't think this is what I really want to do. I kind of had to you know, sit down and think, right, what do you enjoy doing? You know, what, what makes you tick? What, when you get home at night, what do you look back on in your working day and think, I've really enjoyed that? You know, that's what I really love to do. And it always kind of came back to the, you know, the sales piece. And I ended up where, you know, when I worked at the, the law firm in a role that didn't have a sales title, actually. I ended up managing a team, but part of the role was, you know, to sell the technology platform, and I absolutely loved it. I think I knew then that that was kind of what I wanted to do. So, yeah, it was, you know, I guess my love for sales and then kind of technology, and it just came together at, you know, at the law firm. And then, you know, ended up working with a global bank there, which was, you know, an amazing experience. And then, you know, moved on to carry on the sales role in my job today. But I've done it on and off, I think. And, you know, I do say that we are all salespeople and I don't think we, we realize, you know, that we're selling sometimes. I think since, you know, the age of 21, I've always been a salesperson.

21:42 Scott Ingram: Well, and talk about if maybe they're… obviously most of the listeners to the podcast are in sales, but maybe they want to expose their kids to this, right? And have them think, or young relatives, about the potential of sales, and I know that's something you're passionate about. How would you articulate what it's about? Because I think there's so many misconceptions when we think, oh, I would never want to go into sales because it's, it's some something. And again, they're thinking of some stereotype that's not at all accurate. How would you articulate what it's really about to somebody that's young thinking about what they want to be when they grow up?

22:23 Claire Philliskirk: And you're so right, because, you know, I've experienced it firsthand. I'll never forget my daughter saying to me, um, when I said I, you know, I worked in sales, and she said, I'm not telling my friends that. Your job in the law firm sounded so much better. And I thought, well, do you know what, um, maybe I just need to tell my daughter what exactly what it is I do. Um, and I think in order to articulate, you know, the, the profession. And, um, you know, it goes back to, I guess, my passion for the, for the profession. Sales is at the helm of, you know, every single person's business out there. You need to interact with so many different functions of business, and you need to know so much detail to work in sales. You need to know what makes the business money, what, you know, where the highest profit margins are, what are the best products. You know, you need to liaise with senior stakeholders at, um, you know, you know, at that, at that level. Um, you also need to be a really good, uh, collaborator. You need to be able to… and I make a point of saying, you know, because there's a stereotype of salespeople, they do is party. And yeah, we do, you know, we work hard and we play hard, but I make this comment about bringing the right people to the party, and if you're selling something, especially if it's a pretty complex solution and it's a kind of a slow burner and it's a real consultative sell, you've got to bring the right people to that party, and that takes skill. You know, it's to be able to bring, and not just with the customer, but with, you know, internally in your business. I think, you know, the skills you need to be a successful salesperson are, you know, on par with the skills that you, you know, you might need to be a CEO. You know, most businesses out there, I guarantee, I have read a statistic somewhere, but, you know, I think about 80% of, you know, CEOs out there were once in sales, you know, whether they were head of sales in that business or, you know, head of sales elsewhere. But that's, you know, it just goes to show.

24:48 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's one of those things, I think it is, it sort of forces you to learn and grow probably faster than almost any other profession. And I tell people, it's the best way to really understand something is, is either to do it, you know, maybe you're interested in finance or you're interested in law. So you could do one of those things, but there's a really long learning curve just from a professional education perspective, or you could sell it. And I think the process of selling it, because you interact with so many different pieces, people, and you see it from so many different angles, And you have to learn very rapidly everything because you can't be credible if you don't understand. So, it just sort of pushes you to accelerate that learning curve. And it's something that I've applied to a lot of things. There have been a few things that I've been really keenly interested in, much like you, right? Like, oh, I love technology. Well, one of the ways that I could learn technology is I could do it, but that's kind of like law, sit behind a keyboard and stop having fun and get very, very narrow. Get very, very narrowly focused or think about it kind of more, more broadly. So interesting stuff.

26:05 Claire Philliskirk: Claire, we are in the perfect position, you know, to, to learn. We're going back to the technology side, like you say, you know, I could… yeah, I'm interested in, you know, in software and, you know, artificial intelligence and automation. And sure, I could sit there and do kind of the, you know, the developer type stuff on that. But actually, I'm learning so much more by selling that stuff and also going out and doing my own research. We're in a great position, you know, and it's my job.

26:40 Scott Ingram: Yeah, yeah, love it, love it. So Claire, I mean, since you've been in more traditional sales roles, where, where have you found the most challenge or the most struggle?

26:53 Claire Philliskirk: I would have to say, you know, since I've been in the more traditional roles, is that part I talked about before in terms of bringing the right stakeholders to the table. That's not an easy thing to do. You know, you've got… there's an element of, you know, persuasion and influence to even get that person to, you know, accept a call with you or a meeting with you. You know, you've kind of got a lot of legwork to do before, you know, before they even, you know, will come to the table. So I think that's been a challenge. And do you know what? I've actually… one of the ways I've overcome that challenge over the last 12 months, and I've shared this with my team, I am, you know, a prolific, you know, user of social media and LinkedIn, and I use it so much in my role to engage with those senior stakeholders. And it works.

27:53 Scott Ingram: Talk about that a little bit more. How specifically are you leveraging that? Because I think that's an area that everybody can always do better at. It's getting those stakeholders to the table, whether it's a brand new account or more people in an account you're already engaged with.

28:10 Claire Philliskirk: So I think, you know, the traditional methods of… and do you know what, not to, you know, Not that some of the traditional methods don't work, because I'm a big fan of still picking up the phone. I think us salespeople don't do enough these days. But, you know, sending an email to somebody, you know, we all know we get hundreds of emails a day. We kind of just skip through it or we delete it. But I think with social media, especially, you know, LinkedIn for business, it's kind of a new a new thing for a lot of senior stakeholders out there, but also sharing content. One way I… one thing I find really successful, so, you know, I'll just give you an example. So, I had a customer, well, they work in the e-commerce business, so, well, and they work in retail, and I was really struggling to get a hold of the the IT director, and I thought to myself, what would interest me? What could one of my suppliers do that would kind of prick my ears and think, yeah, do you know what, I want to talk to that person? So, I just did some research into their industry, and I found some really good articles, and I went onto LinkedIn, and I sent the you know, the guy in the article, and I just said, you know, been researching a little bit about your industry, I found this, I thought you might find it really interesting. Do you know what? It worked, and it's taken that interest and, you know, kind of going that little bit further to say, you know, I've got your back here, you know, I want to help you out, I want to, you know, kind of be proactive and say, this is what's happening in industry. You know, if you didn't already know, here it is. And he really appreciated that. That was the start of a really good relationship for me.

30:11 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And I think that ties back so well to your second point earlier around empathy. It sounds like you really just put yourself in the shoes of, okay, if I was this person in this role, in this company, what would I care most about? What would I be interested in? And then you really went to go seek that out. And that opened the door. Now you've got a relationship. Now you've got a conversation that leads to many more things.

30:36 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, that's it, you know, and I guess, you know, just to kind of emphasize there that not one size fits all. I couldn't do that with some, you know, some with every single person, but it goes back to the empathy thing, you know, understanding. Understand, you know what it is? It's understanding what makes them tick. That's exactly what it is. Yeah.

31:01 Scott Ingram: And are there other tools that you use to understand that ticking sound? It sounds like you use a lot of LinkedIn, right? You're, you're going on social. Yeah. So, so beyond stalking. Exactly. Beyond what I like to call social stalking.

31:17 Claire Philliskirk: Um, yeah, you know, what are there other, other things that you do to kind of get in their head and understand what's So, do you know what, going right the way back to basics, you know, understanding what their strategy is as a business. And it may be as simple as going on their website and looking at their annual report, or just looking at some of the news feeds on there, looking at their, you know, the company Twitter, just, you know, just taking an interest, but, you know, just being on the same page, the same page as them. Sure.

31:52 Scott Ingram: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So Claire, let's switch gears a little bit. Do you have a specific morning routine you follow? When do you get up? How does your day start?

32:04 Claire Philliskirk: Um, do you know what, Scott? This is like the dreaded question for me. My mornings are like absolute chaos. I don't get up every morning and, you know, 10 miles or anything. I'd love to. Um, but I have to… so I've got I guess no one day is the same for me. You know, I could be out on the road, or, you know, I'm in the office, I'm at meetings, or I'm working from home. And I guess I kind of… the only morning routine I have, because I've got 2 children, is we absolutely have to sit down together for 20 minutes and we have to talk. No phones, no iPads, no technology. We have to talk. And that's kind of a life routine, I guess. I mean, not to say I don't have any routine in my life at all. I guess a couple of things that I like to do. I'll always make a list before I go to sleep of the top things I need to do that next day because What it does, you know, if I've written it down and it's kind of, you know, gone from my mind, I can get a good night's sleep. You know, nothing's going to keep me awake at night because I know it's on the list and I'll deal with it in the morning or the next day. I guess a couple of other kind of routine things I could mention. So, you know, I'm a real strong believer that you need to nurture your mind and, you know, look after your mind. So I may, I, you know, I have 2, I always make a point of doing yoga twice a week, just 2 1-hour sessions, and I just feel like I'm giving my mind a bit of a break and, you know, you know, that relaxation. And I make a point of educating myself every day for an hour at least, whether, like I said before, reading an article or, you know, or even just sitting down with some of the We've got some solution specialists internally at our business and sitting down with them and saying, look, I really want to know more about this. So I don't have any specific morning routine because it's pretty manic in our house in the morning. But, you know, yeah, that's just a few things that, you know, routine-wise that I make a point of doing every week.

34:35 Scott Ingram: Well, before I…

34:36 Claire Philliskirk: and exercise, actually.

34:38 Scott Ingram: Sure. Well, before I harass you a little bit more on the habits and routines, I've got another little bonus for our listeners. Uh, my friend Craig Rosenberg, who many people know as the Funnelholic, is getting ready to host the 2nd annual Topo Summit in San Francisco on April 12th and 13th. And what makes that event really unique is all the presenters are actual practitioners, much like this show. So I'll be there. I would love to connect with you in person and you can get all the details at Topo… uh, see, I went down the path already. Top One, not Topo. That's coming next. top1.fm. Topo. That's T-O-P-O. We also have a ticket to the event that we're going to give away in our Sales Success Community on February 24th. So, if you're not already in the community, you can head over to top1.fm, get on the mailing list that automatically prompts an invite to that community, and you can find the Topo Challenge from there. So, Claire, I have a feeling that I'm going to… I'm trying to become a psychic. That's the next thing I'm working on. Are you a night owl?

35:43 Claire Philliskirk: Yep.

35:45 Scott Ingram: So here's, here's what I'm finding is, and maybe I'm gonna have to switch up the way that I ask this question in the future, is the night owl folks, they do not have morning routines. Like, morning is chaos, morning is hell. But I would guess then that you have a little bit more of a structured kind of evening routine in the way that you approach things. And you obviously talked about kind of that list, getting everything out of your head. Preparing for the next day. Are there other things that you're doing in the evening to set yourself up for success?

36:16 Claire Philliskirk: Do you know what, I don't really… I don't watch much TV, but I do like to read. So if, you know, of an evening, I'll… and I've got, I guess there's a few books that I'll add, a few books that I've read a lot of times, and I'll go back to. So, you know, if I always… and I always record, you know, just on my phone in my notes what I've done in the day, what's been good, what's been bad, what I've enjoyed. I always make a point, and sometimes it's just one, you know, 2 sentences, but I think that's really important to kind of reflect on the day. So, you know, I'll read some articles, I'll write a little couple of sentences, you know, in my notes about what I've done that day, what's been great, you know, what maybe hasn't. And, you know, I'll make that list, and then when I eventually go to sleep, if it might be a bit late, you know, it's off my mind. And sometimes I'll, you know, I'll read a book as well. If I've… and it doesn't happen that often, you know, I'm a very positive person, but if I've had a day where I think, oh, Do you know what, not feeling that positive today. Um, one book that I absolutely swear by is a book, um, called Taming Tigers by Jim Lawless. I don't know if you've heard of it.

37:41 Scott Ingram: I haven't.

37:42 Claire Philliskirk: And oh, it's fantastic. Um, so, and I'll just read, uh, you know, even if I just read a few pages from that book, it kind of, you know, brings me, boosts me back up. And, um, yeah, and then I'll wake up the next day Raring to go.

37:57 Scott Ingram: Oh, that's awesome. And talk about… so you're doing a little bit of, sounds like kind of a journaling exercise and recording your day. Do you use that in any other way? Like, do you, do you go back and review that? How does… how do you use that?

38:12 Claire Philliskirk: Do you know what? I actually don't. But I guess I should practice what I preach. Because I said before, you know, about looking back on things that worked and didn't work in sales. We should always revisit that. I guess for me, the reason I do it is it kind of just gets it off my chest, you know, and I've just kind of released it. And then it also makes me realize, you know, kind of how I'm feeling and then what I may need or not need to do in order to, you know, just bring yourself back up to that, you know, that positive state of mind.

38:48 Scott Ingram: So, so it's almost more of a self-awareness exercise in real time. It's kind of helping you understand, okay, here's, here's what's going on, here's what I'm seeing. And so you're kind of getting that benefit right then.

39:00 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah. And you know what? And also, um, it, it does set me up for the next day if something's not gone well, or if I, you know, and I always reflect on any meeting I've had with the customer, and I'm very much a, you know, go with your instinct kind of girl, go with your gut. And if something just didn't feel right, I'll reflect on it later on in the day and I'll think, well, what was it? And then I'll go back to it maybe the next day. And, you know, I think that's also important.

39:32 Scott Ingram: And obviously, I mean, it's come up a lot, the education and the learning is really important to you. What does your information diet look like? Are there places that you're going to most consistently to get that learning? Is it books? Is it articles? Is it podcasts? What all are those sources for you that have that impact?

39:53 Claire Philliskirk: As I said before, I read a lot of articles on LinkedIn and also on Twitter. I've got the TED Talks app on my phone, and I'll listen to those. I've got a really great friend that she works in learning and development, and she often sends me links. In fact, she's She sent me a link earlier from Brendon Burchard, and I love his work. I don't know if you're familiar with Brendon Burchard, but his work's really good. And you know what, going on to the whole learning and kind of my information diary, so I guess I do spend a fair bit of time in the car, and I like to listen to music in the car, but I'll listen to some you know, motivational talks and maybe some audiobooks in the car as well, just so I know that I'm making use of that time. And I guess when it comes to the books, I mean, I love reading the, you know, inspirational books and kind of self-help books. But if I had to pick a few that I absolutely swear by, because some of them do have the same content, but I think you can pick certain things from from them and kind of take away those things. So I mentioned Taming Tigers by Jim Lawless, and it's absolutely amazing. I would recommend it. And he talks about taking… being really bold, actually, and taking risks, you know, but calculated risks. Um, and so that's, you know, I always refer back to that book. And, um, another book by a guy called Pat Divilly, and he He wrote a book called Upgrade Your Life. And then, not a book, but actually something that somebody recommended to me recently, because I've got a bit of an overactive brain. I don't know whether that's a salesperson trait, but I have, you know, and I've got all these ideas going around in my brain, all these things I want to do, and actually I need some kind of structure to that. So, a friend of mine recently recommended a goal mapping website. So it's by a guy called Brian Mayne. So you go on and you fill out this, it's free, and you go and you fill out this goal map and you put some pictures on there as well, you know, so you can visualize it. And you look at it every day and you kind of, you add to it and, you know, you say, how am I going to get there? And who do I need to help me get there? But that's, that's a brilliant tool as well. That's, so I think those things are, you know, really important.

42:35 Scott Ingram: And is that perspective, is that called goal mapping?

42:39 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, it's Goal Mapping Online.

42:42 Scott Ingram: Awesome. Well, obviously we'll include all this stuff in the show notes. So if you're in the car listening, totally get that. Uh, you'll just go to top1.fm and we'll have links to everything that, uh, that Claire's talked about. So, Claire, how would you describe your style as a seller?

43:00 Claire Philliskirk: I'm not one to go in for this. I would never go in for the sale straight away, even if I knew there was a clear opportunity there. I'm… and, you know, another thing that salespeople need to be, you've got to be inquisitive. I like to understand exactly you know, what selling this product is going to do for that customer. Um, and so I, I'll do a lot of research on the customer, um, you know, and, and just get kind of get as much information as, as I can out of them. Um, so I think, I don't know if, you know, I don't know how you would describe that style, but, you know, It goes back to the consultative selling, I think. And I think, I don't know how I do it, but I think I've just kind of got… I think if you do that and you're really inquisitive, then you've got a whole heap of information to go with. And some people naturally just spot opportunity right away anyway. If you've got all this information, then, you know, you'll find so much opportunity in there. It's about the preparation and the pre-work that you do.

44:19 Scott Ingram: Well, and it sounds like that ties to the conversation that I had with Debe Rapson. She talked about using discovery as discovery, so not having that agenda of what am I going to sell and how am I going to position, and instead just saying, look, we'll get to that, but right now, it's just gathering as much information as you can and understanding and then having an opportunity to sort of consume that. And, and well, I guess you came from a law background, so maybe you're, you're doing… think of it as legal discovery. You do discovery and then you build a case and then you present the case.

44:58 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, just touching upon something you said then, you know, about that agenda, I think if you go into any, you know, kind of sale or, you know, opportunity with sincere agenda, you know, something good will always come of it. You know, so you can still have an agenda. That's not a problem. But, you know, don't make your agenda, I just want to sell something here and I just want to make a load of money. You know, there's got to be some, some other substance behind it.

45:34 Scott Ingram: And do you, do you think about that and communicate that to the client? So when you're setting that meeting or as you're introducing the conversation, because you're going to sit down with somebody for, for an hour, let's say, do you set that up with them in some way?

45:50 Claire Philliskirk: In terms of setting up the expectations for the meeting?

45:53 Scott Ingram: Yeah, exactly.

45:53 Claire Philliskirk: What do you mean? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'll say, you know, I mean, I'll always kind of have… not to say it's not in a manipulative way, but I'll have my own agenda. I'll know. So before I go into any meeting, you know, I'll know exactly what I want to find out. And sometimes it may just be as simple as, you know, where is, you know, or as broad as where would the business go in the next 12 months, you know, just what I'll kind of know in my head, the type of information that I want to find out. But yeah, absolutely, I think it's important to manage expectations to the customer and kind of say to them, do you know what, this first meeting, I don't want to talk specific products. I don't want to talk pricing. What I really want to do is, you know, understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And yeah, I think it's important to do that. Otherwise, you can get into a meeting and they want to jump straight in and talk about price, and you could give them a price and you could probably sell them something there and then, but that's not sustainable. You know, chances are 6, 12 months down the line, they're going to come to you and say, do you know what, that's not the great… that's not the best product, or when it comes to renewal, they ain't going to renew.

47:08 Scott Ingram: Yeah, and I think that's the key there. It's, it's setting that expectation, right? Because if you go in and you don't say, set that, here, here's the plan, and they, what they're then expecting is, well, I want to get a price, I want to know what the products are, I want all of these other things. And if that's not what you want, there's just a disconnect and nobody's going to get what they want at at the end of the day.

47:33 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, and it doesn't mean you can never talk about price. I mean, you know, you, you might have 10 meetings with the customer and, you know, and it gets to that point where you've… you may have been avoiding talking about price because the customer doesn't want to. And so again, you know, just set expectations and you say to the customer, look, I'm going to come… I'm going to, you know, whether it's over the phone or face to face, I'm going to come in today, we've talked about all these whole host of products and solutions and what you're trying to achieve. What I want to understand today is, you know, what's your budget? They really appreciate that open and honest stance, and sometimes you have got to be a bit bold in sales, well, a lot of the time, but what have I got to lose by saying to the customer, you know, can we… if it's the right time, of course. I'm not going to say, what's your budget, at the first meeting, but I've got nothing to lose. I've explored every single other option and done that discovery piece. So, and if it's the right time, and, you know, most people, most successful salespeople know it's the right time, well, then you talk about price. Yeah.

48:43 Scott Ingram: Claire, is there a particular sales methodology or sales process that you follow or has informed the style of yours?

48:51 Claire Philliskirk: We do employ a sales methodology called CCV, which is basically creating client value, and it kind of follows 4 stages. So the first stage is the, you know, awareness of needs, that discovery piece, and to me that's the most important stage. The second stage would be that alleviation of risk. You know, we talked about risk before, where the customer's in that, you know, they're maybe looking at some other competitors, or, you know, they're weighing up the risks of taking this product. Also, you know, obviously a really important, important phase as well, and you are never going to get to the next stage, which is decision until you've alleviated those risks. So then next stage, you know, it's pretty self-explanatory, is decision stage. Customer says yes, you know, we want to go with you, great. And then the final stage would be, you know, almost the follow-up to the sale, which is super important because then hopefully what that does is it just starts you back on that cycle, you know, and you can find another opportunity, but you absolutely need to follow up with anything that you said. I mean, if it's a transactional sell, you know, it's completely different. If it's, you know, a solution, you absolutely need to follow up with it and say, look, this is what we talked about before you bought the product, you know, this is what we said it would achieve, you know, has, has it achieved that, you know? And then it… and then the customer's, you know, also reaffirming to you that, that, you know, you've, you've done a good job, and that's, that's satisfying actually.

50:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. It obviously lays the groundwork for the trust that you need to go do the next deal and hopefully bigger deal.

50:50 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like you say, it lays the foundations for me to then, you know, get… maybe talk to them about another product. And, you know, they'll be absolutely open to talking to you about something else if you've done a really good job first time round.

51:04 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. So, Claire, I'm curious, what your perspective is on kind of the difference between you and your level of success and maybe the average performer in, in your organization. What, what do you think is the difference in why you've been able to get where you are and they're not there yet?

51:21 Claire Philliskirk: Do you know what, it could be, it could be a number of things, and it will be different things with different people. And I say that only because I've observed it firsthand, not just where I am now, but but in the past. And some people genuinely do just lack the basics, like, you know, setting expectations and, you know, even right down to, you know, putting a really good agenda in place. I think honestly, so I really care about what I do and, you know, and I care about the customers. I think it's, I I don't know how to explain it, but I think it's the empathy. I really do. Because if I look at, you know, over the years, the different salespeople I've worked alongside who've, you know, that not to say they've not been successful, but they've not reached that level. It's not hard, you know, a real great deal of empathy or, you know, emotional intelligence. I think that is a… that's definitely a key difference.

52:31 Scott Ingram: It's so interesting that you say this. So one of the things I have been really working to get my head around is obviously women in sales are a minority, but I'm seeing with some level of consistency, obviously the deck is getting stacked a little bit here because I reached out to a number of folks that won a Woman in Sales Award. So, okay, let's put that aside. But even before that, right, even before I made that effort and have set up some of these interviews, I would say something like half of the organizations I reached out to, it seemed like there was a woman who was in the number one spot in that sales organization. And sure as heck, there's, there's not, they don't represent 50% of the sales force. And so I've been trying to understand Why is it? Why are women so consistently, uh, at the top in, in sales? And, and at the same time, I'd say just anecdotally, I see very few women anywhere near the bottom. And I, I think so far that it is this empathy. I, I think as I talk with these women who are killing it, I mean, you know, 527% of plan, that's impressive. Um, it's, it's this idea that it's not about them. They're really focused on the outcome and what their customer is really wanting and trying to achieve, and they are working like heck to help them get there. And, and then the results just sort of happen. They, they fall into place. And, and I'll follow that up. I mean, I'm interested in your commentary on that. Like, do you think that's accurate? Am I, am I missing something?

54:09 Claire Philliskirk: And absolutely, no, I think you're You're spot on. Um, and not, you know, not to disrespect you men out there, but we're pretty good listeners as well.

54:20 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

54:21 Claire Philliskirk: Um, I think that's, you know, that, that's super important, you know, um, to be, you know, to be able to listen. And I think, you know, I don't know about, you know, I'm not… don't blame me out there, but We're pretty rubbish at shouting about ourselves, you know, because most of the time it's not really about us. It goes back to that sincere agenda, but I think you're absolutely right in that if you were looking for that correlation between these women that are super successful and at the top of their game, the empathy aspect has got to play a part in it, definitely.

55:05 Scott Ingram: And this is kind of a continuation. So one of the things, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna open it up. How do you think about closing a deal?

55:16 Claire Philliskirk: You know, I wouldn't say I'm absolutely not, you know, pushy and, you know, and say, you know, it's gotta be signed by this date, you know, no, no way. You know, that's not my approach. I'm pretty certain not. I will say to a customer, you know, what date can we expect sign-off on this? And, but I don't really push it. You know, I think that work you've done prior to getting that deal signed off pretty much sets you up to get it anyway.

55:51 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And that aligns with just my thinking in general. I think when we create unnatural pressure, um, it, it just, it screws up the relationship. It messes up the deal. It's all about the work that you do before that and kind of how you set up that trajectory. And, and then the, the deal closing is, is just sort of a natural, yep, okay, that's the next thing that happens. And it's not, it's not, that's not the big deal. The big deal for, for me is, okay, now how do we make the customer successful? Because I don't think of just that one transaction, right? If we're doing a good job, there's more and more and more.

56:29 Claire Philliskirk: I think that's why I struggle to answer the question, because I don't think about that aspect of the deal as being the most important. It is actually just a natural thing if you do the, the other, you know, if you perform the other stages before that in the right way.

56:44 Scott Ingram: So what, what are the most important aspects?

56:49 Claire Philliskirk: Absolutely the awareness of needs. Part, the discovery part.

56:54 Scott Ingram: And what about, how do you think about qualifying in terms of deciding which opportunities you're going to pursue and those you might choose to walk away from?

57:07 Claire Philliskirk: So I think, you know, some of them you just, you'll go with your instinct. I'm pretty persistent as well. There's probably not many that I've walked away from. I mean, sometimes, yeah, you've got to, you know, you've… I'll get to a point where I'll think, do you know what, this isn't the right solution for this customer, and actually they're only going to come back to us in 6, 12 months' time and say this doesn't work. And it goes back to that, you know, kind of engaging in the type of behavior that that will give you sustainable results. So you've got, you know, that you… there are times where you've got to say, this isn't right. And you know what, I've… I mean, I've worked with salespeople who've said, you know, oh, I've got a great relationship with these guys, I can sell them anything, even if, you know, even if they didn't even need it, and they probably could. But, um, that's not, you know, there's got to be some synergy there. I always see it as It's got, you know, whatever it is, it's got to hit 2 sweet spots. So, you know, hit the customer's sweet spot, you know, it's a product or service that they genuinely get some benefit from, and, you know, and actually when it comes to renewal, they'll renew it. And then it's got to hit your sweet spot as well. So, you know, it's, it's, it's got to… you've got to feel confident that what you've sold is the right thing, and, you know, at the same time, it'll help hit your targets. And as long as you engage in that right behavior and your intentions behind it are sincere, you'll always hit, you'll always get the results. Yeah.

58:58 Scott Ingram: Awesome. Claire, let me do something a little bit different with this next section, and I'm just going to call it the Advice from Claire section. We'll give you your own column. Um, and, and I sort of think about this, however you want to tackle it. I like to think about what advice would you give to, uh, somebody who's starting their sales career, perhaps starting in a new role? Um, what advice would you give to somebody who has, um, been at it a while, right? And is, is either, uh, doing okay, but, but could be doing better. And somebody who's at the top that, um, They're crushing it. They're number one. Maybe this is the advice for yourself section. You know, how do you maintain that? How do you keep going and continue to deliver those results? So let me just be quiet for a bit and let you kind of make some of those suggestions and give that advice however you want to approach it.

59:57 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, sure. So somebody new to the role, you know, I would say, you know, absolutely embrace it. Don't be afraid to ask for help. You know, I've spent so many years in my life probably being a bit of a control freak, and because, you know, I want to be the best at everything, and to ask for help, to me, not now, but, you know, say 10 years ago, I thought, well, that's a bit of a weakness. But don't be scared to ask for help, and don't be scared to reach out to those people that are successful and say, help, you know, how do you do it, you know, help me basically. So that's what I would say to the, you know, the newbies to the sales profession. To the salespeople that are, you know, might be struggling a little bit, you know, it goes back to what we said before, what I said before about looking back on what's worked and what hasn't. And changing the way you do things because, you know, obviously something's not working if you're not getting anywhere, so you've got to make some type of change. And, and you know what, sometimes that change can be as simple as changing your attitude. Attitude is the, you know, it's so important. And, you know, just to lead on then to the people that are, you know, at the top of their game, you know, they're really successful, I guarantee that the reason they're there, or one of the main reasons, and the reason they will stay there is because of their attitude. You know, I mean, that's definitely a big element of it. You know, you've got to be… just believe in, you know, in yourself and what you can do.

1:01:52 Scott Ingram: And how do you work on that for yourself? How do you maintain your attitude and that level of belief in yourself?

1:01:59 Claire Philliskirk: You've got to look at what you've done. And I guess not congratulate… I was gonna say talk to yourself. I do talk to myself quite a lot, actually. But I think it goes back to my routine of, you know, if I kind of feel myself slipping, you know, or, you know, I'm feeling a little bit rubbish at the end of the day, or, and I've not had a great day, then, you know, do things or speak to people that are going to bring you back up to that level. You know what I mean? I've got, you know, a hand… I know if I've had a rubbish day and I'm feeling a bit negative, I've got, you know, 3 really good friends that I know I'll call up and they'll instantly, you know, bring me back to that level. And I do it for them as well. So, you know, it's… I guess it's all about your, you know, your lifestyle and that self-awareness. Or read a book, you know, read Taming Tigers.

1:02:55 Scott Ingram: I'm looking forward to reading that book. You've obviously leaned on it a lot, so I'm very, very curious to see what's in there. And then, Claire, what would you want to know of other top sellers who were in the same position as you? What would you want to know and learn from them?

1:03:16 Claire Philliskirk: Um, I would, I would want to know what their… when you reach the top, you know, do you… do they think it's healthy or, you know, the right decision to just to stay there? Or, you know, at what point do they think, right, now's time to move on? You know, not… I'm not saying, you know, move on company-wise, but, you know, that they've obviously mastered some pretty amazing skills to get to that point. So, you know, at what point do they say, you know what, it's time to move on to something else now? Or do they just stay there, you know, and maintain that, you know, successful streak and just, and just stay there?

1:04:08 Scott Ingram: How do you think about that for yourself?

1:04:11 Claire Philliskirk: This is why I'm asking the question, Scott.

1:04:14 Scott Ingram: I know, that's why I like to turn it around. It's the most fun.

1:04:18 Claire Philliskirk: I think it goes back to what, what do I get? What motivates me? What, what, what can I write down in my little notes at the end of the day and think, you know what, I felt really good about doing that. I felt really fulfilled. I mean, I always, regardless of what role I'm in, I always kind of tend to gravitate towards like mentor-type roles, you know, and because I just absolutely love helping other people and I love to see other people succeed as well. So I think for me, you know, I'll naturally kind of progress into some, into a role a mentor leadership type role. But I don't know when. I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing. I still feel like I've got stuff to learn, or maybe not even stuff to learn, but just still helping members of the team.

1:05:19 Scott Ingram: So, Claire, what I think I'm hearing from you is the question really comes about when maybe you're you're not growing, or you don't see the opportunity to either grow or contribute anymore. I… that's just kind of absolutely what I'm hearing back.

1:05:37 Claire Philliskirk: Absolutely.

1:05:38 Scott Ingram: Yeah. So, so as long as you're in a position, you might be number one, maybe you've been number one for a long time. As long as you feel like, I'm still growing and/or still contributing, then it's all good. But if one of those things goes away, maybe it's time to really start to reflect heavily.

1:05:55 Claire Philliskirk: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, if I'm in a position where, you know, I kind of hit my targets every quarter, but I'm not getting that fulfillment out of it, then it's time to move on. Yeah.

1:06:14 Scott Ingram: Claire, who's the very most successful salesperson that you know personally?

1:06:19 Claire Philliskirk: Not a traditional salesperson. It's a bit cliché, actually, but I have to say my dad. He's really good at selling himself. He really is. And you know what? He's an absolutely great person. He's, yeah, and everyone loves him. He's really inspirational. And, you know, yeah, yeah. And we're all salespeople, you know.

1:06:40 Scott Ingram: Absolutely. I love that. I love that. So to wrap it up, what I try and do is, you know, we've, we've been talking for well over an hour now. Just to try and distill this and make it actionable for the person listening to this who is looking to improve themselves. They want to grow. They want to see greater success in their own sales career. What challenge would you give to them? What is something that they can take on over the next week or 2 weeks that's going to make a tangible difference for them?

1:07:17 Claire Philliskirk: I would challenge them to pick a handful of customers, maybe customers they've not yet kind of broken into that relationship with, and the same customers that they've been successful with, and just analyze what they've been doing, because we don't… I think a lot of the time we do stuff without realizing it. But I think, you know, analyze what you've been doing, what's been good, what's not been good, and then, you know, kind of just do a bit of trial and error, you know, try and test that with, with, you know, with some other customers. But, um, and share it, just absolutely share, you know, share the wealth of information that, that we all have. It helps someone else be successful.

1:08:08 Scott Ingram: What a great challenge! I think that's my favorite one so far. Claire, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for spending your time with me today.

1:08:14 Claire Philliskirk: Thank you so much. It's been amazing.

1:08:19 Scott Ingram: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss an episode, and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.