1: #1 LinkedIn Account Executive – Mike Dudgeon

0:08 Scott Ingram: You're listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast, where we deconstruct world-class sales performers to provide insights and strategies to help you improve. To learn more, visit us at top1.fm. Here's your host, Scott Ingram.

0:25 Scott Ingram: Today my guest is Mike Dudgeon, who just recently made the transition to sales manager from his previous role as a senior global account executive at LinkedIn, where he was primarily responsible for the Microsoft relationship. So the way I see it, Mike was so successful in that role that the result was a $26 billion acquisition. Mike, you might need to correct the record there a little bit, but welcome to the show.

0:47 Mike Dudgeon: Uh, thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. Yeah, I don't know, um, if I was, uh, even a percent responsible for it, but, uh, maybe had, uh, laid some of the initial tracks. So just kidding. But thanks, Scott. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

0:59 Scott Ingram: Yeah, absolutely. So rather than starting at the beginning with Mike's background and history, we're going to try something a little different and start with some bigger value right out of the gate. So I asked Mike to think about the top 3 things that set him apart and allowed him to get to the top. So Mike, I don't know which of those 3 you want to start with or if you want to outline them first, but, uh, what's on your mind?

1:20 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would say, you know, the top 3 for me has always… and some of this plays to, to my strengths and obviously leading, learning, and, and leading teams now. I think the first one is giving. The top 3 for me are giving to others is number 1. 2, be paranoid, which comes from Larry Bird. He had a great quote about paranoia and practicing more than others. And 3 is be different. And there's 3 different ways that you can be different, and I'll go into those. So I think the first one is fundamental to sales, especially today with social selling and the fact that sales has definitely turned into much more of a consultative approach, which is, is giving to others. And I don't see it just being giving to your clients, but also giving to your leaders in terms of giving up. But also, you know, where I work, it's very team-based. So helping your peers, both that maybe report into you, but also those who are in cross-functional teams as well. And I think it all starts with you have to have empathy for those you work with and work around. And that's really listening to their challenges. You know, everyone, you know, the attention span, that's, that's the greatest issue happening now. And I feel as if you have a strong empathy and can listen to their problems and give them a solution, everyone will always give you their attention if you have a solution. So that's the way I believe you can, you can best give to others is listening to their problems and giving them a solution that they can easily sell up. 2 is, is being paranoid. Um, you know, there's so many great quotes out there, but for me it's always been the Larry Bird one. Is, you know, when he was, when he's going through, I think the, the early '80s as he was challenging the Lakers, he had a And I'll paraphrase here, is a quote that, you know, I practice more than others. I can't say I've met anyone who's practiced more than me. And essentially what he was really noting to was the fact that he just lived such a paranoid life that he would out-practice everyone. And I think that's the way I've always approached it. Not that I'm up at midnight, sometimes I am being paranoid, but I want to make sure I'm outworking everyone else. And I think, you know, I don't really look at outcomes necessarily. I think I look at the process and the progress. Actually, I don't really ever get jealous of anyone who's actually achieved more than me. I think I get jealous sometimes when someone is outworking me. The third one is being different. I think for sales folks, this is going to be huge as the job market changes. We're going to have to be different. We can't just be sellers. I think you see this where social selling has evolved, where we've taken on much more of a marketing approach, where we've had to develop our own identities and figure out how we're different in the marketplace. For me, it's always been curiosity. Even growing up as a kid, I grew up on a farm and I loved just exploring the woods and exploring all of our crops. I just love being out there and being on an adventure. That's what I've always loved about sales, is it gives you the ability to go down different paths and to be curious about different subjects and about people and about places that you can go. With that said, you still got to have fun. You see some of the greatest sellers always have a smile on their face. They're always eager to help. But they also have a great pride in themselves. And you can just see it in their face where they're confident and they're having fun. And the last one that kind of ties into both is taking risk. If you're not taking the risk, you're probably not having as much fun as you could be, at least for me. And you're not probably being as curious if you become complacent. And you're not putting yourself out there with your clients, but also with educating yourself. They're not going to be different. So for me, it's always been about being curious. Having fun and taking risks.

4:57 Scott Ingram: So going back to the giving piece, talk about that a little bit more in terms of, is it, is it strategic giving, right? Is there intent behind it thinking if I, if I give over here, then I expect that I can probably get over there? How do you think about that element?

5:16 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think, you know, especially like I've been working with enterprise customers for quite some time and My previous client had, if you looked in the US alone, primarily we would call on marketing folks, communication folks, but also people in PR and things like that. Being at LinkedIn has become a major hub for distribution within B2B, so there's not a shortage of people who want to talk to you. What I always was looking for in terms of wanting to give to someone else was someone who was willing to invest in me as well, because there'd always be people who wanted to hear what LinkedIn was up to, what we were doing, and it was just a pure informational session. So a lot of times I would look at the individual to see, you know, did this person… could this person be a champion internally within their organization? And did they want to partner with me or not? Or was this fully just me helping them and it was going to be a one-sided affair? And a lot of times we do find ourselves in these relationships and there's nothing we can really do to prevent them where it's one-sided, where you're giving and giving and giving. But for me, it was always always someone who, who could give back, and it became just kind of a mutual relationship where I was helping them, um, and they were giving back to me in some shape or form. So yeah, so that's, that's how I would, would think about it in terms of giving, is you can't give to everyone, so you have to give to others who, who are willing to invest in you. And that's just not monetarily either.

6:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah, so, so it's just a little bit of qualifying. And I, I agree with that. I think some people are… and I think it's maybe it's Adam Grant that's written about this a little bit, right? There are people… some people are wired as givers, some people are takers and giving to takers doesn't really do much for you. So you've got to kind of qualify on that a little bit. So switching over to the paranoia piece, and it also dawns on me, didn't Bill Gates write a book called Only the Paranoid Survive?

7:05 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think it was, uh, was it Andy Grove from Intel? Maybe. Maybe we'll have to research it.

7:12 Scott Ingram: Maybe it was. Maybe. Yeah, I know. See, I don't know who the author was. Somebody, somebody in the tech space once upon a time wrote a book. So, and it's funny that you bring up Larry Bird because I was on the other side of that equation growing up with the Lakers in the '80s, and, and that's almost cured me of basketball because it's never been so good since. But where do you focus? Like, what's the visualization of who you're paranoid about outworking you? Is it, is it your peers wanting to be at the top? Is it competitors? What's, what's on the other end of that paranoia for you?

7:46 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, for me it's competitors. It could be because LinkedIn's culture is very collaborative in nature. And I know some sales teams, you know, can be much more competitive internally. For me, internal competition is great, but I feel like it could be much more healthy if you can focus in on your competitors. So my focus has always been more external, but also more internal, maybe, maybe on myself more so than, than teammates at LinkedIn, especially for, you know, I've been here almost 6 years now and it's been growth company, so we're all kind of learning as we go. So there has to be a bit of collaboration for you helping the person beside you to, to make sure you're learning, especially in the ad tech and marketing tech side of things where this thing's changing almost by the month and you need to rely on others to help you out with information and continue to grow yourself.

8:38 Scott Ingram: Awesome. Absolutely. And then when it comes to being different, so your 3rd point, I think the way I heard it, maybe kind of the suggestion for the listener is, you kind of figuring out what your own strengths are and how you leverage that to be different. And you're suggesting that your strengths are kind of the work ethic, the taking risks and, and being curious. Is, is that how you think about that? Is that how you would sort of put that forward to other people or to your team?

9:06 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think it comes down to, uh, being different is, is recognizing the strengths in yourself and, and kind of giving yourself the excuse to, to be yourself. I feel like in sales, people still try to hit the, you know, attain this certain persona, which is almost like this extroverted type of person where they look and feel the same. I believe to differentiate yourself, there's only one type of you, and that person can be highly different. So I think this is something that you learn over time. Some people learn when they're 22, some learn when they're 42. And so I think it's just continuing to ask yourself the questions in terms of what are your strengths, what feels natural. And for me, it's always just been like, what's most fun to me. And it's always just been what's been natural to me is just curiosity. And what I've learned over time, which is actually was what we'll get into later maybe, is just kind of fear has always been kind of my weakness. But at the same time, it's, it's been the most fun for me when I'm taking, when I'm taking risk. So those were the 3 things that, that helped differentiate me. And I think when I walk into a client, I have always been great at empathy and wanting to help. Um, and so I think, you know, what I've laid on top of that is curiosity and, and the fun and taking risk over time. I've learned about myself.

10:20 Scott Ingram: Nice. So quick question, we'll come back to the fear thing later for sure, but you mentioned the extroversion thing. Where, where do you personally sit on kind of the extrovert-introvert scale?

10:30 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so, so definitely more on the introvert. Um, my, my in-laws think that I'm a crazy extrovert. But for me, my strengths… I'm very cerebral in my approach. And I think over time, I've learned that I'm more introverted. I wouldn't say I'm clearly over on way into the introverted path, but definitely swing to the left a little bit of my friends in the extroverted space.

10:58 Scott Ingram: Very interesting. So before we talk about the background and really dig deep, I wanted to take the opportunity to thank my founding sponsor, Nudge. Without them, this show literally wouldn't be possible. Nudge is a modern sales platform that leverages relationship strength to help you find and keep your best customers. Uh, I've been using it myself since their early beta, and they continue to add more and more to their solution. So if you value relationships the way I do, then you need Nudge. You can sign up for free at neednudge.com. That's N-E-E-D-N-U-D-G-E.com. So pretty, pretty good alignment with having you as the guest here, Mike, uh, because it does, it does kind of connect into LinkedIn and connects into Gmail and looks at, uh, how often you're communicating with people and suggest things that you might want to, want to share. So very, very fun platform for those listening. Hope you'll check it out. Um, so Mike, let's now… let's, let's do kind of that history lesson. So can you talk a little bit about your role and how you got to number 1?

11:58 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so my current role, um, I manage an enterprise, uh, sales team for our marketing solutions business, uh, at LinkedIn. So working with 30 of our top enterprise tech clients here on the West Coast. Previous to this role, which I started here in January of 2016, for 4 years I was a senior account executive at LinkedIn working primarily with Microsoft. Although when I first started, I started in Chicago working on the likes of Jim Beam, which was… it was back in, gosh, 2010 when we were still going through a little bit of the kind of economic crisis. And I believe one of the first campaigns I ever sold sold was to job changers, which were people who were changing jobs because of the economic uncertainty. So it was a unique and creative way to approach the campaign. But so now I'm working on the managing side. And for me, what separates me, I guess, is I'm an over-planner at times. And that may be a little bit of the introverted side of things. But I feel like with enterprise companies, the ability to plan and make connections within these large companies can really separate you from others. I feel most people will try to go and kill the big whale, so to speak, at these big enterprise companies. But really, you have to catch a ton of little fish. And the only way that you're going to do that is through planning. 2, I think empathy has always been a strength of mine. And we'll probably get into a little bit of my history at some point. But empathy, the ability to relate with others, to understand their problems, I've always been just a great listener. And again, that could go back to me naturally being an introvert is something that I've always really kind of been great at, but not only ability to listen, but coming from previous going into sales, I worked on the ad strategy side. And so I always had this built-in process to take information and turn it into ideas that were tied to results. And so taking those problems and listening to people and turning those into ideas that are tied to the results that our customers need. Has probably helped differentiate me more than most because not too many folks have that built-in process within sales to quickly take that information and have a process that turns it into an idea and result. And then once the results are there, I'm always good about communicating. Like, positive word of mouth within enterprise companies is your best friend. And so the ability to take any positive result that a customer has and communicate those within an enterprise company makes you scale much quicker than trying to go one-to-one and meet with each customer.

14:42 Scott Ingram: And I want to go back and make sure I heard… I think I misheard what you said earlier. Did you say you worked with Jim Beam?

14:48 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, yeah, I worked with Jim Beam. So when we first started at LinkedIn, we've gone to more category-specific, so we went to like tech, financial services, but back in the day, it was in Chicago, was working with ad agencies and the clients Midwest. And as we know, packaged goods is a big, big industry in Chicago. And so Jim Beam was one of the first advertisers I worked with as we were getting the ad business off the ground at LinkedIn.

15:18 Scott Ingram: Very fun. One of my favorite beverages. So I had to ask.

15:21 Mike Dudgeon: Nice. Yeah. So hopefully the, the, the ad campaign we had for them was to help people celebrate their new jobs as people were coming back into the workforce. And hopefully a little Jim Beam helped them.

15:33 Scott Ingram: Got it. Nice, nice. So you talked about the, the results side of things, and we'll come at that from a couple of different angles, but maybe talk about kind of your own personal results. Can you quantify those for us and just put, uh, put your success in context for us?

15:47 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah. Um, you know, in the, the first year, especially as we were building the business, you know, we've always been a high-growth company. Um, and I can come in here and say that we are always crushing goal, and we definitely got to a place that we were. We definitely started off slower than most because we were building something new. It was understanding and having to really educate a marketplace on not only what LinkedIn was, but also social. We were almost building a category in parallel in terms of working with Twitter and Facebook that people had never before purchased or understood really the key performance indicators that they were going to sell back to their clients, but also internally sometimes with ad agencies. I'd say in the first year was probably our roughest, but after that, we built a process in terms of educating folks, but also teaching them how to buy and how to advertise on LinkedIn. Things began to take off. Where we saw over a 3-year period consistently, at least within the business I was calling on, we were looking at 200% growth plus year over year. A lot of that had to do with penetration within the organization. Sure, there was definitely some tailwind working with social as well, well as became, um, you know, as we got further into the years, you know, social got some tailwind and took off. And so there definitely was that at play. Um, but in the advertising and marketing business, unless you're hitting these KPIs, you don't stick around long. And so you need to have a positive experience for the clients.

17:19 Scott Ingram: Cool. And going back to your comments about the idea, your ability to take an idea and turn that into results, I mean, can you walk us through at a high level what, what is that? How can somebody else kind of take your approach there?

17:33 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, um, and my key theme is… I don't want to oversimplify this, but, uh, you know, I try to keep things simple. So for me, is, um, you know, every business has a process. And so I always saw myself as almost this independent business within a greater company. But, um, you know, it first starts with understanding that there's going to be business drivers and there's going to be business hurdles for clients that they're dealing with. They want to take advantage of their drivers And they want to lower their barriers as much as possible so they can overcome them. So knowing that, I can be active in the marketplace in terms of listening from clients, but also the internet is such a, such a great trove of information that you can pretty much walk into a client and understand their problems to be able to at least derive some insights, both with what's happening on the internet, what's happening with their business by talking to them. But also LinkedIn is a tremendous resource in terms of understanding insights about their business as well. From there, I take those insights And for us, at least within the marketing business, there's also audience insights. So, you know, for example, for Microsoft, what is a business decision maker up to on LinkedIn? What type of content maybe are they consuming? And be able to generate ideas. So where they can maybe distribute to certain audiences on LinkedIn, what type of content they should be connecting them with is the next process or the next step in the process. And third is what type of results should they expect? Setting expectations of what those results could be and should be so that they can also take what I've created for them as essentially a business case that they could take up to their boss and say, hey, I have this great idea that I think LinkedIn can help us with one of our barriers or help us with one of our drivers that I think we should look into. What I've always looked at the business case is it's almost refrigerator material. Either they're putting on the refrigerator a result, that's going to help them with one of their OKRs for the year, or an idea that is a big shiny idea that gets them recognition but also helps them with their overall business result. So the first one is insights. So where can I get insights either from the customer, from the internet, or for me, it's always been LinkedIn and our own product. 2 is ideas, which a lot of it comes from the whiteboard and working with my team. And 3rd is what type of results should we expect or should they respect and should we be striving to get for them? And then making it nicely packaged into almost a business case that they could take forth to their, to their, uh, to their leadership.

20:00 Scott Ingram: That's great stuff. Thanks for sharing that. So Mike, what's, what's your origin story? How did you get into sales?

20:05 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so I started off, um, on the media strategy side working at, uh, DDB, which is a large agency, still is a large agency in Chicago, working on, uh, the McDonald's business. I had 2 tours of duties there, um, helped launch, uh, Monopoly, if you've ever played the game. I helped with 101 Dalmatians, if you've ever bought the lunchbox there. But I also worked on Dell Computers when they were starting to get into the early days of using marketing for revenue generation. Actually, for both customers, I saw for the first time how marketing can impact revenue. We were actually measured, and we could tell, based upon our media buying habits, how much store traffic we'd be generating for McDonald's. And for Dell, we could actually see how much revenue we were driving for them based upon their media spend. What was the return on investment in terms of revenue, almost by media channel as well? So those are my first days in terms of working to get revenue for a company. But also, I love the creativity because you really had to use your mind to figure out how was I going to use all these media properties to generate ideas with them that could result in a net positive ROI for them. After a while, I moved on to a few new accounts that were less revenue-focused, and I took a sabbatical where… kind of where I was talking about before… one of my greatest strengths is empathy. I also enjoy learning about the human body. So I actually went into a sabbatical where I studied physical therapy and volunteered for 7 months because I thought I wanted to help people a bit more, but also recognized doing that, that maybe I didn't have have as much empathy for folks as I thought. Not in a bad way, but it does take a lot. I have to give a lot of credit to nurses and doctors and physical therapists out there, because it does take a lot out of you to help people in the way that they do. But I recognized that I missed the creativity and the ownership I'd have in terms of being responsible for… I wouldn't say revenue recognition didn't necessarily drive me. Maybe it's the creativity and the ideas to help build businesses is what I missed. So I knew I eventually wanted to get into sales to own own kind of outcome. So I went back on the agency side working on business development. I worked at a small agency driving new accounts into the agency. Then I got a great break. I went over to Newsweek to work with probably the best mentor I've ever had in sales, Bill Youngberg, who is probably going to be retiring here soon. He took me aboard and I had a tremendous year with him before I went over to the Wall Street Wall Street Journal to work in their digital network, which then led me over to LinkedIn. So that's kind of the long overview of it. But it was twisting and winding. And I'd say through each kind of transition, there's something I took that's kind of led me to where I am now. I think from the agency side, it was a set process in terms of how to take information and turn them into ideas and to get them to results. The physical therapy thing there was just probably scratching an itch I had in terms of empathy and wanting to help others. And then the business development side was, was, I think for me more than anything, was just to help me get into sales. And then from there, I just had tremendous mentors helping me, um, from my first day at Newsweek, uh, to my first day at Wall Street Journal and then coming here aboard at LinkedIn.

23:30 Scott Ingram: Oh, great story. So if you were starting that process over today, would you have done or thought about anything differently from a career perspective?

23:38 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would've gotten into sales earlier. I think, I think it's a little bit of Um, it was the introverted side of me. I think 2 things were at play is, uh, fear has always been a challenge, I think, for me. And I think it comes a little bit from the introverted side. And I always had this theory or belief that you had to be this huge extrovert to, to be into sales, um, which, um, I think it can give folks, um, an advantage for sure, without a doubt, being extroverted. But, um, you know, introverts now definitely are at play. Um, you see a lot more folks coming in from the consulting side of things, participating in sales. I think if I would have just taken the risk sooner and gotten into sales, you know, I've enjoyed it so much. And I think what I've, what I've learned before getting into sales, I think has definitely helped me. But I really wish I would have made the jump a lot sooner.

24:32 Scott Ingram: Talk about the mentor piece a little bit more. It sounds like that started because you found maybe a really great leader that you were working for. Is… has it been been primarily that and just making sure that you were working under good folks? How do you think about mentors in general?

24:50 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think, you know, that's where, you know, I think we've all heard the classic, you know, quote of always work for a great leader, don't work for a great company, something to that effect. But, you know, there's been times in my career where I've chosen a company over the leader, right? There was a big shiny brand that I went for versus the leader. And I would say that That was a mistake that I'll never do again. But the mentor standpoint, for me at the time, because I was a bit more introverted than most, Bill Ljungberg helped me a ton because he's definitely over on the extroverted side and probably brought it out of me a lot more than I realized, but also was extremely kind and compassionate in the development of me. I think he, you know, it was pure luck, frankly, um, getting such a good mentor. I would like to say I was conscious at the time in selecting him, but he selected me. And, you know, I think it was having compassion and understanding of my unique skills, and I think he just did a great job of, of bringing them out of me in, in such a short time. And I wish, I wish I would have been more, more selective or conscious of that decision, especially even after that. I don't think I realized at the time how great I had it. Um, but I would have… uh, that's one thing I guess I'd recommend to people is just be conscious of, especially through the interview process and when you're looking at leadership, it matters, um, so much. Um, you know, the results thing is, is definitely there, but making sure that you have a good leader who has a process but also, um, has compassion to learn about you and understand your strengths and know how to put those strengths to use.

26:41 Scott Ingram: How can you flesh that out? I mean, as, as you're interviewing for a role and you're trying to figure out, is, is this the right person to be working for given that level of importance, what, what can you ask? What can you look for? What's the best way to kind of figure that out?

26:55 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think there's a little bit of knowing what you connect with, right? You know, I've always seen it, um, even with the AEs I have now, you know, I've For me, it's always a partnership, right? Like, there's definitely a manager-subordinate, I guess, element there, but it's also, is the person willing to partner? So I'm always looking for someone who has the same type of things I'm trying or I want to achieve. So that could be revenue, that could be growth through education, relationships. Whatever that may be, but also someone who has opposites where maybe I lack. For Bill, for example, he was a little bit more extroverted and I was introverted. Serendipitously, I bumped into him, but I look for those types of things where, where's the strength that they have that I don't have? For example, my director now is tremendous with operations. Like plugging all the backend things to make something go. I'm not that great at it, right? And so, um, that helps me learn from him, um, how to do those types of things. Um, and third is I think just you got to get along. Like, is it going to be… does this seem like the person that you could go have a drink with or have a dinner with, um, on a frequent basis? And so I think a lot of that just comes from like in terms of finding that out is You know, with LinkedIn, you can definitely tell who they're connected to. And as you move through your career, you're able to have more connections. They just ask people like, what is this person's style? What is their approach? But definitely even now is just asking them upfront through even before maybe the interview is like, hey, what's your style? What are you looking for? Like, what are you trying to get to? It's just like a good sales call, right? And there's been clients that I've turned down because I just didn't feel like it was going to be a good fit. And so it wasn't going to be a good experience for them. It wasn't going to be a good experience for me. Kind of take the same approach in terms of when looking at new leadership, you know, do I feel like this is going to be a good relationship or not?

29:05 Scott Ingram: Yeah, great, great thoughts. I mean, I think it's always important to think about the interview process. I mean, it is a sales process at the end of the day, but I've always thought you have to qualify crazy, crazy hard because it's the only time that you only have one unit to sell, right? I can only sell me once. And in those scenarios, there's, there's not a bunch of them I can move on to the next one. So I think it's, it's probably more important for, um, the, the sales professional to be doing the qualifying even more than the, than the hiring company because, you know, even on a team you're one of X number.

29:41 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah. And I, I would say too, even for the, the leader, like even going through the interview process now, and I've been doing this for what, 9 months now, is I make sure to the person, I'm like, do you have enough information for me to make a decision on us and me? Um, because I don't want to have… I don't want to have anybody have regrets, right? And that would be the worst thing possible. And so I actually take more time to say like, look, we've got an extra 15 minutes here, let's just get down to it, you know. Um, this is, this is what we're looking for. This is the type of… this is how I work. Like, what do you, what do you want out of this job? Um, and can we give that to you or not? To essentially qualify, is this a good opportunity for you and is it a good opportunity for us?

30:23 Scott Ingram: Yeah, important stuff. So Mike, from an accomplishment perspective, what, what are you most proud of, whether, whether at LinkedIn or maybe someplace else?

30:31 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would say, you know, it's, uh, maybe it's recency theory, but for me it's, um, you know, the ability to, you know, I'm having such a great time here in, in San Francisco, and I think, uh, the accomplishment is just, uh, being here and being able to compete with, with some of the best talent, um, in the world and being able to support support a small but growing family here in the city, for me, is tremendous just based upon where I came from in terms of growing up on a farm. I think my dad still to this day probably thinks I'm coming back at some point to participate on the farm. But I would say where I am today, it may be a little bit of a cop-out of an answer, but the fact that I'm in San Francisco competing with some of the best and able to help support family here is a tremendous accomplishment to me. But if you're looking for something specific, Scott, I can try again.

31:24 Scott Ingram: Let's try again. I mean, that's… that was a little too fluffy, Mike. Come on.

31:28 Mike Dudgeon: Too fluffy. Okay. Um, I would say, you know, 2 years ago I was the Global AE of the Year for LinkedIn. I would say that was a big accomplishment, um, for myself. Um, just, you know, given, you know, was based out of Chicago, you know, had a non-MEDDIC book, meaning, you know, worked with the Jim Beam's, the McDonald's of the world, which aren't exactly consumer products lining up to use LinkedIn for advertising needs because we're much more business-to-business, to be able to work through that and to attain a large client like Microsoft and to become a one of the best AEs at LinkedIn globally was a huge accomplishment for me, both in pride and see that, you know, my work and kind of my theories in terms of sales had paid off. But also for my wife at the time… still today is my wife… was super proud just to see. She knew how hard I was working at getting there in terms of definitely a lot of trial and error during the be the first few years at LinkedIn to develop a certain process that clients respected and liked. And to see that come full circle and to see high results and also be recognized for being the Global AE of the Year was a huge accomplishment.

32:53 Scott Ingram: That's what I'm talking about. See, you're clearly a little overly humble, Mike, but I appreciate your sharing that. So on the flip side, and maybe, I mean, you've alluded to it a couple of times, maybe it was that first year at LinkedIn, maybe it was another time, and what's the biggest challenge you've had to face? Or maybe even place us at that time when you struggled the most. What was going on?

33:12 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think, and I kind of alluded to this, is being a bit more introverted, it's always been the fear of putting yourself out there. But I've been able to make that a fun thing for me just because curiosity has always driven me. I've churned it into something that is more fun. So I've done fear challenges where I'll do like 5 7-day commitments to overcoming certain fears. Sounds very Tim Ferriss-y, but Tim Ferriss, for those of you listening, his name isn't Ferriss-y. But, you know, I'll try to do challenges where I overcome fear, and that's helping me kick out a little bit of my introvertedness and put myself out there where there's a consistent pattern where it's the things aren't as fearful. You know, I think it goes back to… I remember my parents… I really wanted to do karate as a kid, and I remember my parents had bought me this cool karate… I don't know what you call it. If there's karate folks out here, taekwondo folks, I apologize for betraying you, but it was a karate outfit that my parents had gotten me. And I remember they took me the first day of karate, and they asked me to bring a board. I think I was like 5 years old, and I pretty much left there crying. And my dad said, you'll go right back in there and you'll, you'll give it a try. And so I've always… that was like one of the most fearful moments of my life and still kind of, as you can tell, resonates with me. So I took the same approach of if there's something, uh, that is extremely fearful for me, I tend to go more towards, um, the fear now. And so one of the challenges, um, actually for me has always been I've been, um, I always just didn't like getting on the stage. So I did a 3-day challenge where it may seem minor to people, but there was a large industry event that I presented at, followed by an improv course the next day. This may seem easy to others, but not to me, but karaoke on the 3rd day. This is my most recent fear challenge. Um, because I knew I had these things. I had a presentation that was to be presented to industry folks. So I tacked on 2 more things that were made of fear in terms of myself getting in front of a stage. Um, some people say they don't see the fear, but it really does take a lot out of me sometimes to, uh, to put myself out there like that.

35:42 Scott Ingram: That's awesome. So if I heard that right, it's really, you've, you've been introspective, right? Really understanding what that fear is. And then it sounds like really just crafting challenges and and having ways to run towards the fire and get through it, right?

35:59 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah. Yeah. Again, I put a little bit more process into it. It's definitely awareness. I spend a ton of time, probably more so, and this may be again, the introverted part of just time to understand how am I doing mentally, physically, spiritually, all that stuff and just have awareness of it. And then I create a small, very simple plan. Um, but then I give myself certain kind of consequences, consequences like positive consequences. So if I do these challenges, I'll give myself something at, at the end, um, that at least is some sort of reward system. But I also give consequences in terms of just like telling my wife I'm doing this. There's no way that I can back out of doing it. And so there's the consequences for essentially saying like, hey Mike, did you do this or not? Not in a weird way, but in a very, in a very much like, oh, you didn't do that? Oh, I thought you said you're going to do this. That type of way where not wanting to let her down. So yeah, I would say understand there's fear there, which is awareness, making a small but simple plan, and then just giving yourself some sort of accountability and also consequence. I usually make it a positive consequence, which is usually a Starbucks or small technology purchase of some sort.

37:15 Scott Ingram: Nice. You answered my next question, which was, what are the positive consequences? So what was the most recent small technology purchase?

37:23 Mike Dudgeon: The most… well, I just did the preorder on the new iPhone 7, which was the most recent. But the recent most small… well, we did get the Apple TV. I'm afraid to get an Xbox. I haven't been much of a gamer, but I'm afraid if I get an Xbox, it may turn me into one. With the Microsoft acquisition pending, I am interested in what they can provide from an entertainment standpoint for the family.

37:57 Scott Ingram: Very interesting. I was going to say, you totally screwed up the evergreenness of the show calling out the iPhone 7 launch, but I'm in that same boat with you. I cannot start gaming. I am so competitive, and it's like, OK, well, I have to conquer this, and it will consume my life. That's sort of… it's almost my drug. Like, I… yeah, it's like crack, you know? You just… you don't, don't do the first hit because it just leads to bad things.

38:25 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, exactly. So I don't know if we'll, we'll be, uh, we'll be purchasing one, but we'll see. Um, but yeah, I would say the… I'm, I'm eager to see the iPhone 7. Uh, lots of… I've got a young family, so lots of, lots of pictures. So they sold me on, on camera.

38:40 Scott Ingram: Nice. Well, you, you mentioned Tim Ferriss, and I'm a big Tim Ferriss fan, so that's kind of a perfect transition into… this feels like the, the Tim Tim Ferriss-inspired portion of the show. I'm curious if you do have a specific morning routine. Maybe that's harder now that you've got quite young children.

38:58 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, there was the pre-kids routine, which was amazing. And there's the post-kids, which is… I'm working through it. But yeah, for me, I just know I'm a morning person. And so I'm usually up somewhere between 4 and 5. We have a young one right now, so depending on sleep, Like my wife has been just great at helping me, you know, sleep. Um, my wife, uh, stays home and takes care of the kids. And so she takes one for the team and typically is up, but we live in a small apartment. Um, as I mentioned before the call, built before the 1900s, which is retrofitted for earthquakes, but you can still hear through the walls. And so there's still a little bit of waking up, but now I wake up between, uh, pre, I was definitely up between 4 and 5. I love road cycling. So for me, it was getting out the door and getting on my bike. Um, before 6 was a big thing, but I also like to crank on some of my, either my big ideas or email before I leave the door. There's a bit of, uh, accomplishment I like to feel before I get into anything else. And if I'm not doing email or working on something big, I like to go over my plan again. I know some people might sound as if it's crazy, but for me, it's just like, that's where I'm best is in the morning. And so I like to crank on the hard stuff I need to think about because come 4 or 5, I'm, I'm like crashing. And so I know I have to get up and do it or I'm just not going to be as effective during the day. And then I'm going to have that 5 to 7 to 8 guilt that I didn't get enough done. And so then I try to, you know, typically in the past I would love going out and going cycling, or now I do a lot more running just because it doesn't take as much time. And so I'm out the door, I'll typically do a 30-45 minute run, um, every other day now. Um, I used to run marathons in the past, but those days are gone. Then I come back, I'll work a little bit more, more like review email, just because a lot of New York emails are coming in at the time. I'll spend time with the kids between 7 and 8. And then I live 2 miles from work now in San Francisco, and so I use that time to walk, listen to podcasts or audiobooks. And so it's, uh, it's really an enriching time for me. My wife makes fun of me. She's like, I can't believe that you call that an enriching time. I'm like, I get to walk, I commute myself, we save money, and I get to do a little bit of learning. And so, um, yeah, that's typically my morning. And then I'm in, I have a sense of accomplishment. So I've got some momentum going into 9 o'clock and then, uh, I'm off and going.

41:33 Scott Ingram: That's awesome. Yeah. It sounds, sounds very, very similar to my schedule. And I was thinking, you know, one of these times, uh, when I'm out your way in San Francisco, we'll have to, uh, we'll have to maybe do the Paradise Loop together. It's one of my favorite rides.

41:43 Mike Dudgeon: Ah, nice. Yeah, definitely.

41:45 Scott Ingram: So are there other… we talked about the morning a little bit. Are there other habits or routines that are really central to your success throughout the day?

41:53 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so usually in the morning, and a lot of this, you know, I've learned from others but also just trial and error, you know, I don't like to go directly into meetings. Again, I know I'm a morning person and my energy spikes in the morning, and so I'm trying to work, you know, between 9:00 and 1:00 on projects, and then I leave the back half for any sort of meetings. That usually helps me. And then on the way home, I'll either do calls or again listen to podcasts. But also my way in, I'll try to knock out calls if anyone wants to chat between 8 and 9. I do a walk and talk. So yeah, that's typically how I structure. Even moving into the new role, I've really tried to block out time for building stuff. I totally believe that there's a manager schedule and there's a creator schedule. I definitely see the, the AEs as the creators, but I still try to maintain a little bit of a creator schedule, creator schedule to hopefully build stuff. I mean, we're still in the business of building things because we work in advertising and marketing. I'm either building process or building ideas to help our clients or help our AEs. So I try to block out as much time as possible to build things versus just being in meetings just because I'm a manager now.

43:11 Scott Ingram: Right, right. So what is, what does your information diet look like? It sounds like you've got the podcast going on. What's, what's going in your ears? What are you reading? What are you watching?

43:20 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah. So podcast-wise, you know, I'll do everything from self-improvement. You know, I think listening to things like Tim Ferriss to Michael Hyatt, Art of Charm, which sounds like a podcast that is like for pickup artists, it may have actually started that way, but it's really just understanding kind of human psychology. I do some Zig Ziglar. Type stuff. But I also, so people don't think I'm too crazy on the business side, I listen to a lot of Barstool Sports podcasts and also Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. If there's any fans out there, I'm a huge fan of that. But my top one is probably Tim Ferriss. I think he just does a great job with just interviews, but also just interesting and differentiated information. Also, my favorite is James Altucher Show, if for those who are listening, listeners, but also spend a ton of time on audiobooks as well. I'll switch back and forth between that and podcasts, and those are… I'll do a heavy like month or 2 on podcasts, and then I'll do a heavy month or 2 on books. And other than that, like I spend a lot of time in newsletters. I feel like that's my best way to keep up to date on customers but also on what's happening in the industry. And then I'll do a lot of Google and alerts in terms of like information I have to know. So, you know, at the time it was any information I needed to know about LinkedIn that Google was crawling, but also on Microsoft. And so I'm getting every day as many updates as possible about our customers. And so I really just try to keep myself ahead of even my customers in terms of knowledge about their company, but also knowledge about their industry as well. That would make me well-informed when, when meeting with them. But I'm not all business. I do a ton of… not a ton, but we spend about an hour a day probably with TV, my wife and I, in terms of just like a way to relax. So we'll, you know, like everyone probably, we watch Game of Thrones, we watch a lot of different comedies, and something to keep it light at the end of the day. But my wife is trying to get me into reading now instead of watching TV, so we'll see how that transition goes. Yeah, exactly.

45:34 Scott Ingram: So those newsletters, I mean, we're both in the in the marketing technology space. What what are maybe some top two or three that really stand out where you consistently get good info from?

45:44 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, well, the the usual one is for the marketing business. I feel like whatever happens on Ad Age is typically where the the market goes in terms of our buyers. But I use SmartBrief as well, which is from IAB. I also do things like… I'm going to mispronounce his last name… but Ramit Sethi, which does a lot on copywriting because I'm always just interested in the art of copywriting, especially in the digital age. I do Ben Thompson. Which is a subscription newsletter, which I highly recommend. It's called Strategery. I feel like I'm saying like the George Bush strategy. Strategery. Strategery. I can't even say it now, which is just a phenomenal read, which covers the tech space. Probably the best, I would say, newsletter out there. And then Jason Hirschhorn's newsletter, which is great, which is… I'm trying to think of it here. I don't know why I've lost it. It. But it's Media Redefined, Media Redef, which I highly recommend for anyone who's in the media business. It's a nice recap in terms of the media as a whole, just not digital, but also TV, print, radio, you name it. He does a great job covering it. I think he was the former CEO of MySpace and now just does a phenomenal job with this newsletter.

47:19 Scott Ingram: Are there any tools or apps that, that you can't live without?

47:22 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so for me, uh, live without… so, right, LinkedIn, obviously, uh, number one in terms of…

47:31 Scott Ingram: yeah, good one…

47:32 Mike Dudgeon: running my business. We also have, um, uh, a separate app called Elevate, which is really focused around employee engagement. And so what it does is curates content within the app so that employees can share that across their social platforms. So if you think about a company like Microsoft, which has 100,000 employees, and the amount of connections that they have within their network, even if 20% of those share, you get tremendous reach. But you also get the ability for them to build their own personal brands, which plays really well with social selling. But beyond the LinkedIn promo, Instagram has been a huge favorite for me, especially with kids. But also, I just love some of the marketing and advertising that's happening on there. But those would be my… sadly, my only 2 that I consume content from. Well, content in the sense of either entertainment or professionally. The other ones I use are Spotify. It's when I'm zoned in. But I use a ton of travel apps like TripAdvisor, Yelp, Foursquare, just because part of the job… again, I love being curious. And so when I'm traveling for this job, gives me the ability to check out new things in new cities, new restaurants, and things like that. American Airlines is my preferred airline, so the American app. And then Starwood is huge for me, too, in terms of where could I go, where could I visit, those types of things. And then a lot of the Apple apps. As we were talking about with podcasts, I use the Podcast app. I use video editing, picture editing, all within iPhone. So a lot of the native apps. That are on there as well. Yeah, I would say that those are my go-to. Obviously, the Kindle is a big fan favorite of mine because of reading. Then Audible as well for listening to the books. Oh, last one, Pocket, which has been a huge, huge savior of mine in terms of finding articles because I have so many newsletters. I'll open an article and then I want to continue to read it. I'll slide it into pocket and I'll come back to it later. Um, that's been a big one for me. And then this will be a fan favorite for you, Strava, which is the one that I love for, for competition, both in cycling, uh, but also in running as well. Tracking, tracking.

49:57 Scott Ingram: Awesome. We will have to follow each other. I am not in the shape that I need to be right now, but, uh, it's, it's getting to be, it's getting to be fall, so it's not 110 in Austin and it's, it's a good time to to be going out and doing that. Um, so from a… do you mention travel or the travel apps? Does… how do you structure your schedule differently when you're on the road, or how do you, how do you think about travel and work?

50:26 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so I, I try to do it with, um, you know, the way I structure my week. I try to put clients on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, um, a little bit now with, with the management role I have control over that a little bit more. Um, but Tuesdays and Wednesdays, usually I have the most amount of energy. Um, you know, Friday I'm, I'm struggling, um, but because we… they are enterprise accounts, we have to travel quite a bit. But structure it for Tuesday, Wednesday. Um, you know, I try to do first flight out and then the first flight coming back. What I've learned in the years is that getting that last flight out, which may seem good for the family, typically results in a delayed flight and you getting home at 2 or 3 in the morning and exhausted and not good for work or for family. And so the ability to get a good night's rest and conserve energy, because when you travel you could just wear yourself down, um, pretty quick. And so I won't do more than 2 nights either. That's just more of a commitment to my family. I think I learned that from Mike Gampson, who's our VP of Sales here globally for LinkedIn. That, you know, the commitment to the family is, you know, I'll only be gone for 2 nights. Now there are going to be some outliers where I'll be gone for a little bit more, but, you know, for my wife, just for her to know that I'll only be gone 2 nights out of the week is, is good for her. And so it becomes predictable and something as a family we can manage around. Um, and then I try to jam-pack the schedule as, as much as possible because, um, both from a cost standpoint for the company, you know, don't want to waste their Um, 2, I believe, you know, these… when you travel and see clients, I see them as just like huge leverage for momentum, um, and you don't want to waste your opportunity, especially when you're calling within these enterprise companies where you have a lot of different contacts that you can meet with. There's really no excuse for you not to have a set schedule. And then if I'm, you know, preparation is huge and obviously making sure that there's an agenda laid out. Um, and that there's quick follow-up. Like, I have a rule for myself, 24 hours. And, um, you know, I asked the… my own AEs to, to follow up within 24 hours because, you know, if you don't, you're going to lose that momentum because there's so many different competitors calling in there and there's so many agendas floating around and, you know, there's so much attention that you're battling for. And if, if you lose kind of that, again, that recency theory with your clients, then it's going to be gone. And then at night, like, again, I believe that people like to work with likable people. And so getting clients out and hopefully entertaining them or doing something with them outside of work, I believe, pays off. So I try to have something scheduled post-5 with clients as much as possible. If not, I see it as a great opportunity to, to bond and connect with the team as well. So we'll try to do some, something, something fun outside of work when we're traveling and, and exploring a new city.

53:25 Scott Ingram: Yeah, some great nuggets in there. I'm glad I asked. So Mike, do you subscribe to a particular sales philosophy?

53:31 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so, uh, so you mean like, uh, like Sales Challenger or those types of things?

53:36 Scott Ingram: Yeah, exactly.

53:37 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would say, you know, maybe it's a hybrid of reading all these books and they all get kind of mishmashed together, um, and you come up with a kind of hybrid that maybe connects with you the most. But, um, I would say Challenger is, is one of them. Um, I do believe, you know, clients, because there's so much information coming at them these days, both with sellers calling in there, their manager's demands, the leadership's demands, if they have folks reporting to them, their demands. But in addition, you know, they're consuming… I mean, we just went through the list of information I consume. They're trying to do the same to keep up with their industry. You know, at the end of the day, like, they just want a point of view, right? Like, they want a point of view that's easy to execute on and that will have some sort of result that is in the business's favor. And I feel like that's about as simple as you get. And so I feel like it maybe falls into challenger camp a little bit where, um, you know, you as an account executive, there's so much access to information now, is like you should be able to walk into your client pretty much on the first meeting now and understand their business needs. Um, and if you don't fully understand them, at least share with them, hey, this is what I believe your needs are, and give them an opportunity to back with you, even if it's incorrect, at least you've done some due diligence that you should have a pretty good idea of what you're going to create for them and share with them and be able to tell them their point of view and to have the next conversation be more focused on how do we execute on that point of view. And that's, I guess, my philosophy is like, just have a point of view. I feel like a lot of times we're just allowing the information to come to us and our clients to come with us. So just, I guess I'm more of like be on the offense type of person, and that you have enough information at your disposal. What people lack is just a solid point of view these days. Um, and so you can differentiate yourself by going in with that point of view and quickly moving it to the next steps.

55:38 Scott Ingram: Nice, nice. It's, it's like asking the waiter at a restaurant what's good and they tell you everything's good. That kills.

55:44 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. But still I feel like people to this day, I mean, it's hard to come in with a differentiated point of view. It takes a lot of time and a lot of time to think, depending, I guess, on what type of product you're selling. But that's why we're all highly paid professionals is it's the ability to understand someone's challenges and your own challenges and to come up with ideas that hopefully overcome them. And not all of them are going to do it, But at least you provided a point of view that's a lot more valuable than just coming in and talking about your product.

56:18 Scott Ingram: Yeah, right on. Is there something you believe that the average rep would think is crazy?

56:25 Mike Dudgeon: I have never shared with my team what time I get up. I think that they would think that's crazy. But I, you know, I, you know, and I guess, you know, it's funny, I was… one of the things I thought about sharing was in terms of a challenge. Is that, that focus on achievement versus fulfillment, um, balance that you have in your life. Um, and so, you know, there is… even as a manager, like, I fully respect everyone's time, um, and want them to be equally balanced in terms of how much value they put into both parts of their life, in terms of fulfillment, maybe with friends, maybe with extracurricular activities, whatever it may be, versus achievement at work professionally. But for me, you do have to be a bit unorthodox. It can't just be a 9-to-5 thing in terms of if you want to have success. It's something that just… you almost always have to be on. So that includes getting up early and understanding, hey, this is when I have my best ideas so that I can get that knocked out so that I can go be physically fit to have enough energy to do the day, but also spend time with my family, but also spend time with my family in the morning so that I also feel good through the day. That gets me to the next part of my stage, which is the next 2 hours of spending time with my family, but then finishing up the day with maybe some more email. Did I ever thought my life would be that structured? No, without a doubt. But I feel like process gets you to progress, which gets you to success, right? And so you have to be disciplined, but also know that like it's not going to be a pretty kind of 9-to-5 process. And you're sometimes you're going to have to wake up at 4 and you're going to have to work a few hours on Saturday and Sunday to get you there. And so, yeah, I guess they would think I'm crazy by working such early hours, but also, you know, working on Saturday and Sunday. But it's not like I'm crazy working on Saturday and Sunday. It's just a few hours before anyone's up to knock a few things out so that, you know, I have a sound strategy going into the next week.

58:41 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And, and what motivates all that? I mean, we talked about your paranoia. Is, is that what does… I mean, what's, what's, what's underlying all of that?

58:50 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think it's, it's competition. You know, without a doubt. It's, you know, this is, at the end of the day, it's like we're not curing anything or anyone. So it's a bit selfish in that we're essentially all vying to compete, but also, you know, take care of ourselves and our families as well. But I think it's competition. I just really like to compete, and for me, it's fun. And so I really just enjoy doing it, and I don't, Uh, was it the Nick Saban quote on, um, the pain of discipline is less than the pain of disappointment? You know, I'd rather, um, succeed and not have that pain of disappointment.

59:32 Scott Ingram: So nice, nice. Well, it's interesting you mentioned kind of that discipline piece a couple of times there. Did you hear the, uh, the episode Tim Ferriss did with Jocko Willink?

59:42 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, actually that's the, the last book I listened to on, uh, on audio.

59:46 Scott Ingram: Nice, nice. I read that, I didn't listen to it, but man, that was… and for those who haven't heard that, you can sort of save yourself the hour and a half, although I… man, it's, it's probably one of the best Tim Ferriss episodes I've listened to. Jocko is… he's like the most decorated Navy SEAL commander, was running some of the craziest stuff in Iraq and Fallujah and all that, and he has a line about discipline equals freedom. And this whole idea that if you have a lot of structure, you don't have to think about those things, and it frees up your mind to be creative and really have that flexibility and freedom. So I think that aligns really, really well with a lot of what you've been talking about.

1:00:28 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the book is Extreme Ownership.

1:00:31 Scott Ingram: Yep.

1:00:32 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, it's a good audio listen.

1:00:34 Scott Ingram: Yeah, and he gets up at 4:30 in the morning like the 3 of us. Crazy nut jobs.

1:00:39 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I don't admit it freely, especially to new people I meet or even to my team, because I don't want them to expect that they have to get up before. I think, I guess we realize that we're most effective at that time. So, and that's okay.

1:00:53 Scott Ingram: Exactly. Exactly. So that's probably not the advice that you would give. What advice would you give to somebody that's maybe starting out their career in sales today?

1:01:02 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would say Um, you know, understand yourself without a doubt. Definitely look within yourself to see what your strengths are. Um, but to that point, I would say be yourself. Like, don't think that you have to be a certain sales persona. Um, there's not enough people who take advantage of how they're different to be essentially different… differentiated in the marketplace would be number 2. And, and 3 is just, you know, going back to what you're talking about in terms of being disciplined, is build your process. Make it unique to you, and then execute on that process. Like, some of the hardest work is in developing your process and just being disciplined to it. For me, it's, it's developing the process. Like, executing on it to me isn't as hard, but just developing that process that I feel confident in to get results, but also I feel comfortable within as well. And so those would be the, the 3 things I would recommend to anyone getting into sales.

1:01:57 Scott Ingram: Nice. Does that change at all for Maybe you have a different set of advice for somebody that's more mid-career. So maybe they're, um, they're doing pretty well but really trying to get to the top, or maybe they've hit a rough patch, right? What, what advice do you have for somebody that's been in this game for a little while?

1:02:15 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I would say, um, been in a while, I think the hard part that's probably happening at the time is, um, you're not differentiating yourself within the organization. So starting to look at Are you selling up? Depending on where you want to go with your career, assuming that maybe they want to go into being the top seller or to be into management, I think it's recognizing that internal selling, as much as we don't want to do it, you have to do it in terms of getting recognition. And that goes back to when I was talking about helping a client get to their core KPI, but also making sure that it's marketed within that organization. Do the same for yourself. And do it within what you're comfortable with. I was never a big show extroverted, but I did it within a way that I knew that I at least was getting recognized for my efforts. And 2 is you got to do things that go above and beyond your core selling ask from the company. And so that's working on other projects that may not be related to your clients, but things hopefully that you're interested in. I would say take on side projects that help the company, help your peers, but also help your manager as well, will help you get recognized as someone who thinks possibly like a manager or thinks like a senior seller so that you'll get that, that recognition hopefully down the line.

1:03:46 Scott Ingram: Nice. That's a pretty good full circle back to your opening statements around just kind of giving and making contribution. Great stuff. So, Mike, as I go through these conversations, I'm curious on your perspective, what would you want to know know more about top sellers in other organizations?

1:04:05 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I think, you know, for me is, um, I, I like to understand other people's just process, um, how they approach… you know, some of the questions you asked today are perfect in terms of, um, what is their process throughout the day, the week, what type of information are they taking in, are they consuming, um, what are they doing with that information would, would be key. Because I think you're always trying to understand like other people's playbooks, you know. It always comes back to, I guess, sports analogies for us, right? But yeah, it's, it's, you know, playbooks for me, like what is, what is the, the software that you're running on essentially, not within the computer but as a human, that makes, makes you a top seller? And I feel like a lot of that has to do with the information in the playbook that you execute on. So that for me would be tops.

1:05:00 Scott Ingram: Cool. And who's the most successful salesperson you know personally?

1:05:04 Mike Dudgeon: I would say our VP of Sales, Mike Ampson. He's, you know, there's few people, you know, for me, I have to work, like I gotta work my process. Like I can't go into a meeting and completely change someone's mind or wow them in the first meeting. Like for me, I live off of listening coming back with a solid idea, and working the process of follow-up, follow-up. Mike Jampson is the type of person who can walk into a room and impress and walk out most likely with a deal in hand. The first day I met him, I was like, this guy is like some sort of Jedi. So I would say, yeah, Mike is the most successful. Um, I've met.

1:05:55 Scott Ingram: Nice. And, and any thoughts around… you mentioned follow-up, you said it twice in a row, so that, that tells me something. What, what do you do? Is there anything unique you do in your, in your follow-up to continue to, to keep that momentum you talked about earlier?

1:06:10 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, I just, um, you know, agenda. I know it seems like a, a pain in, in the ass at the time you're doing it when you're just trying to get… you got a meeting secured, you're excited, your email is blowing up, you got to get back to people. Create the agenda of the outcome that you want at the beginning to get it agreed upon with your client so that you've already pretty much have already written your follow-up for them. Because you should have already done the job of understanding the client's business, what your solution is going to be, and hopefully you've already done the calculations to figure out what type of results that you can give them. So your agenda should be set to that that, your follow-up should essentially just be almost pre-written based upon the feedback you get in the meeting. There's going to be some tweaks to it. And so typically it's already almost pre-written for me before I even come out of the meeting, before I even go to the meeting live. It's going to be some tweaks. Maybe I need to re-pull some numbers or based upon maybe they've thrown a loop at me in terms of a different objective that I hadn't considered. That shouldn't take me more than 24 hours to rephrase it. And so, you That's typically how I follow up is almost have it pre-written before I even go into the meeting.

1:07:22 Scott Ingram: Yeah. And our accounts are always solely focused on our agenda. I mean, that's typically the only thing they really have to worry about. They don't have much other stuff coming at them. But in those rare circumstances where maybe there's some other things going on and things don't happen right away, what's your follow-up to the follow-up approach?

1:07:44 Mike Dudgeon: Uh, follow-up to the follow-up approach. Um, usually I'll, um, you know, hopefully you've, you've got a solid relationship with them, um, that you don't feel as if you're, you're pestering. Um, you know, I usually will use the, hey, I know we, we agreed to this in the agenda, we agreed to this in the meeting. Um, I know this is important to you, it's important to me. Um, let me know when is a good time to reconnect on this. How does it look? On Thursday at 1 o'clock, to be a bit more descriptive. And so I always try to make it around like, this is important to you, it's important to me, so there's a bit of emotion in it so that the follow-up doesn't come across as annoying. But also knowing that… and you do believe, hopefully, that their best result is in your mind, right? That you're trying to get them to something that helps them with a major problem. That is going to relieve a lot of stress from them so that when you follow up, um, you know, it shouldn't be annoying. But if I haven't heard back from them, I'm usually after 2, 3, 4 times, it's like, hey, you know, let me know if, if this has not become a top priority for you, um, and that if we need to reset, let me know. Because sometimes it may not be and they just have the fear of letting you down. So you just need to get to a yes or no, um, as soon as possible so you're not spinning your wheels.

1:09:06 Scott Ingram: Yep, yep, good stuff. Cool. So let's see if we can't tie a big pretty bow on this and boil it all down. You talked about creating your own kind of fear challenges. If you were to create or suggest a challenge that's, you know, maybe 5 days or 7 days or whatever period of time for the listener, what would that be? What would you challenge them to do?

1:09:33 Mike Dudgeon: Yeah, so I would, would challenge them to be, you know, the best version of themselves. You know, I think, you know, at first just starts with understanding yourself. You know, what motivates you? What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? I know there's a great book out there, StrengthsFinder, by Tom Rath, I believe. Have you, have you read that one?

1:09:56 Scott Ingram: Yeah, years ago, but yes.

1:09:58 Mike Dudgeon: Years ago.

1:09:58 Scott Ingram: Yeah.

1:09:59 Mike Dudgeon: You know, it's a good, good place to to start is just understanding yourself. 2 is understanding like what is your process? How do you go about developing your ideas for your customers? How do you go about developing your insights for them? But also kind of what we talked about before is understanding when you work the best. Are you, are you at your best in the morning? Is it the evening? Are you a night owl? Do you need like complete peace and quiet to work? And then 3, like, know how you're going to deliver your recommendations or proposals to your client and what's… what shape or form. For me, it's always I do my best when I'm in person with clients. Some people maybe do better over the phone. You know, know where you do your best work in terms of delivery. And so that would be my challenge, is just figure out from yourself internally, how do you best go about doing the role of sales? And knowing yourself, knowing the way that you're optimized and what you truly have fun at, and deliver that. And then when looking back over it, you know, the thing for me has always been, am I hitting my marks internally in terms of revenue? But also, am I having fun and coming across as fulfilled? For me, it's always been the curiosity of the job. What's been coming on for me has been the ability to take more and more risk. I know I'm having fun, and I know when I'm doing that, I'm highly differentiated and more valuable to my customers.

1:11:44 Scott Ingram: Awesome! Awesome! What a great place to leave this with. I think that's a great challenge. And something to really think through and give some thought to. Obviously, it has helped you be very successful. So, Mike, I just want to thank you for really giving to us today. You've been extremely open and shared some incredible nuggets, and I really appreciate you. Oh, thanks, Scott.

1:12:10 Mike Dudgeon: Thanks for listening to the Sales Success Stories podcast. To be sure you never miss. Episode and for an invitation to our Sales Success Community powered by Influitive, subscribe to our newsletter at top1.fm.